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Safety harness question

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frankr
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256 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/26/2003 : 21:54:39

Does one wear the safety harness under a PFD or over it? I would think one wears it under the PFD for a more secure fit, however I can't find any instructions or even a picture of one being worn with a PFD.

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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 02/26/2003 : 22:29:19

frankr,

I'd say the harness goes on first, then the PFD. I use an integrated auto-inflating PFD with built in harness and dual tethers.

-- Leon Sisson

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John G-
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Response Posted - 02/26/2003 : 22:30:43

Frank,
My rule on board is the PFD gets put on and clipped in when I'm reefed. I use the SOSpenders with the built in harness. If you haven’t purchased the PFD yet get the one with a built in harness. Even with a racing floatation vest it’s hard to put a harness over or it or under it. Think about being dragged behind the boat if you go over. If the harness is under the PFD the PFD will most likely strangle you if the harness is over the floatation devise it is probably too loose and you will slip out and watch your boat sail away.
You will find SOSpenders and other brands with harnesses and floatation jackets with built in harnesses, and yes they cost more.
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
 John G- "PEREGRINE" C25-#4762 FK

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Gloss
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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 17:38:12

Hey John,

Do you change your rules if you are solo sailing vs. sailing with others?

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 17:51:55

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hey John,
Do you change your rules if you are solo sailing vs. sailing with others?
Frank Gloss
89WK/TR
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
 Let’s just say I am stricter when solo. Last season I was out with a couple and we got in some pretty heavy air. Fun but strong. My friend is an experienced sailor but his date was on her first sail. I clipped her in as soon as we were reefed but Scott and I went without.
On the other hand my friend on his 44’ Choy Lee always wears a harness because he has small children on board and it is a family thing. He wears it so they will wear it. Always, and in the dingy as well.
I just found myself sailing in really heavy air without a vest or clipped in and had second thoughts after getting back on the mooring so I am trying discipline myself. I continue to sail barefoot no matter what. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
 John G- "PEREGRINE" C25-#4762 FK

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ssteakley
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USA
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Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 21:57:56

John,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I was out with a couple and we got in some pretty heavy air. Fun but strong. My friend is an experienced sailor but his date was on her first sail. I clipped her in as soon as we were reefed but Scott and I went without.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Did you inform her how to respond to an event where she would be tethered to the boat dragging through the water etc.? Being tethered to a boat has its on set of problems to manage. I of course sail in a lake so I would not harness anyone to the boat since a man overboard manuver would do just fine and I would not have to worry about an inexperienced person manageing a thether which include the possibility of being dragged under. just things for all of us to think about,
Steve
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK

Edited by - ssteakley on 02/27/2003 22:14:52

Edited by - ssteakley on 02/27/2003 22:15:56

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gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 22:14:50

I have always worn the harness under the life jacket and always tied in when single-handing.

Gary & Susan Norgan
C25 tall/wing
Classical Cat #5944
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc35b3127cce94ddf43b35f60000001010" border=0>

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 02:27:08

"Being tethered to a boat has its on set of problems to manage."

After NZL-82 broke her mast during race 4 of the America's Cup last night, ESPN replayed video of oneAustralia sinking in the 1995 Challenger series. oneAustralia went down extremely fast...one second she's above water...the next second, the masthead sinks below the surface.

While watching the crew of oneAustralia scramble to get off the boat before it sank, I wondered what would have happened if the crew wore tethers. In the speed in which the boat went down, I think it would have taken anyone with a tether down with her.

I don't use a tether, but those of you who do,...do you ever think of what you would do in the event of a capsize or sinking while tethered to the boat?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 08:31:33

Hopefully, pull the lanyard on the shackle release.<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 09:21:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
While watching the crew of oneAustralia scramble to get off the boat before it sank, I wondered what would have happened if the crew wore tethers. In the speed in which the boat went down, I think it would have taken anyone with a tether down with her.

I don't use a tether, but those of you who do,...do you ever think of what you would do in the event of a capsize or sinking while tethered to the boat?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Interesting question, Don... Let's see, wasn't it Derek who sent a C-22 to the bottom?

Derek: How fast did it go down? The C-25 has a good deal more ballast (as well as more volume)--I suspect it could disappear pretty quickly if the hull is opened up, as in a collision, or if the poptop let go in a capsize......

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 10:46:32

Dave - "Bluewind" broached and then turtled. She lay upside down on the surface for about a minute, with air blowing out from the cockpit. She went down stern first after 1 1/2 minutes. Interestingly enough, our rescue boat (a Catalina 30) had a couple of lifeguards on board and one dove overboard and attached a line to the bow eye to try and tow her - but she was dragging the C30's stern down, so he tied a float cushion on the end of the line as a marker for her. Unfortunately this line was only 30' long and she sank in 59' of water - the cushion looked like a big fish on the Lowrance the next day so she was easy to find.
The Australian boat was basically broken in half so she filled very quickly and sank like a stone. I would not have liked to have been in her sewer at that time...
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 18:10:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't use a tether, but those of you who do,...do you ever think of what you would do in the event of a capsize or sinking while tethered to the boat?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>The tether I use has a quick release snap shackle with thick beaded lanyard where it connects to the harness D-rings. I'm confident that it would be easy to release quickly with one hand, even with gloves on, under cold water, in the dark, under tension from an auto-inflated PFD. My older ($5 @ garage sale) spare harnesses can only be released by opening the carabiner snap shackle at the jackline end. That's clearly not as safe a design, but I've worn one of them in circumstances where I was happy to take that risk, thank you.

With almost any item of safety gear, if one tries hard enough, it's possible to imagine a set of circumstances, however unlikely, in which that piece of gear could cause more harm than good. (Burning flares to locate a vessel in distress? Suppose there's a gas leak aboard!) Like motorcycle helmets that increase the likelyhood of a broken collar bone, or seatbelts that can cause bruises and internal injuries, I believe that a tether and harness are far more likely to prevent deaths than cause them.

I hope this doesn't sound grumpy or scolding; it certainly isn't intended in that spirit.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 21:28:49

"Like motorcycle helmets that increase the likelyhood of a broken collar bone" - huh????
Leon - I used to run an ER in the UK - lots of motorcyclists and their accidents, but I never saw a broken collar bone. Just lots of crushed skulls and broken legs - until the UK made helmets mandatory <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> - then it was just broken legs. (Sorry this is a bit off the subject).
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 22:13:17

Hmmmm, my only broken bone was a collar bone... and done while bailing off a motorcycle....before it hit a mail box (a very sturdy mail box).

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 22:27:45

"Hmmmm, my only broken bone was a collar bone...and done while bailing off a motorcycle..."

Maybe you should have worn a tether! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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Leon Sisson
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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 03:26:12

Derek Crawford & Arlyn Stewart,

About those collar bones. I don't have the stat's in front of me, but I read them somewhere. (How's that for weaseling?) It wasn't one of those things that the pro-helmet folks went out of their way to advertise. I think the correlation between full coverage helmets and fractured clavicles has been reduced by adding thick padding to the bottom lip of the helmet shell. I think I also vaguely remember an inflatable collar attached to the helmet being marketed in response to the collar bone trade off, but I doubt that gained wide popularity. I have an overlapped clavicle from falling down wearing a full coverage helmet. I'm not complaining, it was a small price to pay for an intact skull with unscrambled contents (well, less scrambled some might contend<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>).

Also, bear in mind, my original analogy referred to full face helmets ("space helmets"), not the open face 3/4 helmets (popular with touring riders who feel the need to talk, smoke, eat, and drink while riding), or the 1/2 shells the badass wannabe crowd carries to protest being coerced into using head protection of any kind.

It's been a while since I needed to pay attention to the state of the art in motorcycle protective clothing. If you check with the roadracing crowd, they could probably give you a more current report on the ups and downs of hitting the pavement in full coverage headgear, and the frailty of collar bones. On the other hand, I suspect the macho Harley biker crowd would gladly bend your ear over a few beers about the supposed evils of full coverage protective head gear. Just ask them about A.B.A.T.E. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Hmm ... "Safety harness question" ... are we rambling off topic yet? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

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Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 11:40:14

Hi everyone,

Since we're on the subject ... or at least we were on the subject of safety harnesses <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> ... how do y'all run your jack lines?

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 13:45:19

Buzz Maring,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... how do y'all run your jack lines?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Outside. From the aft stanchion of the bow rail, outboard of all stanchions and genoa sheets, to the fwd stanchion of the stern rail. That way, a person hanging by their tether could slide back to the cockpit, or even the transom, where the motion is gentler, the freeboard is lower, there are more things to grab while climbing back aboard, and it would be easier for crew in the cockpit to help them.

-- Leon Sisson

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 21:18:59

I run the jack line inside the stanchions and stays so that the hooking up and disconnecting can be done in the cockpit before and after going foreward. The problem as Leon outlines, is what would happen if going overboard on a six foot teather.

Part of this may be the difference between a C25 and a c250. On the C25, likley going forward on the sidedecks with hand rails and hook up once on station, where the c250 of course requires going onto the cabin top.

To deal with the problem of being over the side on a short teather, I have added a 15' teather to my harness. It is coiled with the coil velcroed to the harness and if over the side would allow hooking its caribiner to the eye of the 6' teathers snap shackle. Then the six foot teather could be released giving the extra length to get aft to the boarding ladder. Like all teathers, it has a quick release shackle on the D ring to get loose of the teather if necessary.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 21:29:14

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...or even the transom, where the motion is gentler...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
It is? I've been warned that stern ladders and such can be downright dangerous when the boat is pitching, and that amidships is better, although there's not much to work with there on a C-25. I'm thinking of buying another ladder to hang over the cockpit coaming. What does anybody else think about rescue positions? (Now watch it--I didn't mean that! <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> )

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 21:55:14

I have to agree with Arlyn. All the boats I have sailed on have the jack lines run inside the stanchions flat to the decks using flat climbing webbing. How else to run forward while tethered and not have to fiddle with the tether each time you encounter another stanchion. Running the jack line outside is understandable but impractical IMO. I run the jack line from the stanchion next to the cabin top to the foredeck only. I feel I can clip in somewhere in the cockpit and only need the jack line forward of the cockpit.
BTW I Velcro the swim ladders incase I need to get it down from the water. It may be the last part of the boat I can reach.
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
 John G- "PEREGRINE" C25-#4762 FK

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 12:09:13

I thought the purpose of a jackline was to keep you on the deck. A 6' tether connected to a stanchion(BTW, Chapman's says lifelines and stanchions are unsuitable attachment points for tethers) would only keep you on deck inboard of the stanchion.

Since the tether is supposed to prevent you from falling overboard in the first place, wouldn't it make more sense to run a jackline down the centerline of the deck(with terminations well forward of the stern and aft of the bow), then have the tether equal to the distance from the centerline to the lifelines?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Buzz Maring
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USA
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Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 13:16:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
... wouldn't it make more sense to run a jackline down the centerline of the deck (with terminations well forward of the stern and aft of the bow), then have the tether equal to the distance from the centerline to the lifelines?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Don's idea is more what I had in mind. I'm glad I brought this up ... y'all have brought up considerations I'd never thought about.

My jackline is designed to attach to the base of the forestay, then run across the middle of cabin top to one of the backstay attachments. Frankly, I haven't used it yet ... that's why I asked the question.

BTW Don, you're sure getting fancy with that signature block ... I like the C-25 logos!

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 17:24:14

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I'm glad I brought this up ... y'all have brought up considerations I'd never thought about. My jackline ... I haven't used it yet ... that's why I asked the question.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>That's a good point. How many of us have really "tested" our harness / tether / jackline system, even on a calm day? If it involved the possibility of getting outside of the lifelines, then it's a test I'd prefer not to do alone. Sort of like a crew overboard drill in that respect. On the other hand, I can't imagine it being all that reassuring to the average crew member, especially if there are bugs to be worked out of the system. (A former girlfriend became apprehensive nearly to the point of panic when I put on a harness. I know of one individual who won't even let his wife see a harness and tether for fear of the dire possibilities it might conjure up in her mind.)

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I've been warned that stern ladders and such can be downright dangerous when the boat is pitching, and that amidships is better, although there's not much to work with there on a C-25.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>You're right about there being more pitching motion at the transom than there is a bit further forward. My impression is that the least pitching motion occurs just forward of the cockpit. But as you say, there's not much to climb there. And yes, some sort of quick release to lower the swim ladder while in the water. Maybe a slipknot at the stern rail with a long tail secured near the waterline.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I thought the purpose of a jackline was to keep you on the deck. A 6' tether connected to a stanchion(... stanchions are unsuitable attachment points for tethers) would only keep you on deck inboard of the stanchion. ... Since the tether is supposed to prevent you from falling overboard in the first place, wouldn't it make more sense to run a jackline down the centerline of the deck (with terminations well forward of the stern and aft of the bow), then have the tether equal to the distance from the centerline to the lifelines?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yes, I agree with all that in theory. On a 35' boat with 12' beam and uncluttered decks, that would certainly be my preference. I would much prefer to stay aboard in the first place than to be figuring how to get back on board. It just seems to me that on a 25' boat with 8' beam, centerline jacklines combined with a tether short enough to keep a person from getting outside of the lifelines would not leave enough slack to work with. I'm not completely satisfied with the outboard jacklines, but I tried routing my jacklines inboard of the stanchions, and didn't like that either. I looked at the possiblilty of P&S center jacklines, but couldn't figure out what and where to anchor them to without blocking or damaging the poptop and hatches. Maybe install two padeyes on the aft cabin bulkhead just outboard of the top washboard, and one on the foredeck just aft of the anchor locker? That's one more toe stumper on deck, and two more pokes in the back when lounging in the cockpit. (As for tying off to stanchions, I use the bow and stern rails at their base, not the individual intermediate posts.)

And just to further broaden the topic: jackline materials and tension. I currently use 3/8" black nylon doublebraid line. I like the flat webbing idea. I don't feel the need for a wire core. I don't feel the need to set up the jacklines completely taught.

-- Leon Sisson

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