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4-0 Alinghi--NZL Dismasted...

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/27/2003 : 22:18:38

...in 25 knots of wind in leg 3. The end is near.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/americascup/acstorydisplay.cfm?storyID=3198377&thesection=sport&thesubsection=americascup&thesecondsubsection=general

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 02/27/2003 22:19:51

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 22:26:12

<img src="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/pics/28race4.JPG" border=0>

Yikes! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave,

Was this televised or is it tape delayed until midnight?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 22:40:02

Don: I was out tonight, but to my knowledge, it hasn't been televised yet. I got that straight from the site on the first post.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 23:07:29

A might bit too much throw away design <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 01:40:49

I watched the replay at midnight and, sure enough, the mast snapped like a twig!

<img src="http://americascup.yahoo.com/story_images/3420_BG5030228153054.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://americascup.yahoo.com/story_images/3428_MA3030228163626.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://americascup.yahoo.com/story_images/3426_SD3030228160650.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://americascup.yahoo.com/story_images/3421_BG7030228153054.jpg" border=0>

Here's the link.

<img src="http://eur.i1.yimg.com/americascup.yahoo.com/site_images/ac/actitle.gif" border=0>

http://americascup.yahoo.com/story2095.html

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 09:06:23

The actual event of that thing coming down looked a lot more amazing than the pictures of the aftermath. You'd think the Kiwis, of all people, would've built a boat that could stand up to their own conditions. How do you think it would've done off Freemantle?? (Remember that one? I still have tapes.)

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 10:17:42

That was an amazing wreck... I think it's obvious that NZL has squeezed their design envelope for far too narrow a range of conditions.

I think the highest gust that day was 23, but at the time they snapped the mast it was only 16 kts. The boat dropped into a trough,
the starboard stay parted, and that was all she wrote.

You could tell that the announcers are starting to long for the 12 meter days. Those conditions would have been no challenge at all. I never did figure out why they abandoned them in the first place.

I wonder if NZL regrets squandering those light days where they sat under their awning. Backfired on them perhaps.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 10:49:52

Anyone looking for an unemployed America's Cup engineer/designer?
Steve<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK

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jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 11:28:03

Does anyone know of a website with some downloadable video files of the race ?

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 12:15:51

I wonder what the NZL hats and teeshirts are going for?
"Bear" on the hard in upstate NY

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 12:19:35

It's kind of sickening to look at photos like these, knowing that that carbon fiber mast probably cost more than I paid for my house, my truck, and "Quiet Time" all together. I trust no one on the boat's crew was injured?

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 13:24:02

The announcers mentioned that the mast is worth $700,000.00

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 13:35:50

At that price... wonder how many spares they got? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 13:46:02

Arlyn,

I like your new profile signature.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> I might have to copy that.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 13:58:42

"$700,000 mast"... even at that cost I'm sure they have at least one spare... after all, they have a complete 'backup' boat.

They were very lucky that nobody was hurt or worse. I shudder to think what would have happend if the mast had twisted aft and come down on the deck.

As it was, it looked like 3 or 4 NZL crewmembers ended up in the drink after the collapse. If any of them had been knocked out they likely would have had a real tragedy on their hands.

Maybe this rather disasterous AC series will result in a return to more reasonable boat designs.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 14:25:54

How ironic that the NZ boat has "Toyota" plastered all over it. Had the boat been built by Toyota, and with the same quality with which they build their cars, it would be a different story.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the whole AC thing. Even though I'm not a racer, one-design racing in identical boats makes oh so much more sense to me. That was the philosophy of the 12 meter boats, as best I understand. Sadly, the AC operates by the Golden Rule: Those who have the gold make the rules.

Brooke

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 14:53:13

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Even though I'm not a racer, one-design racing in identical boats makes oh so much more sense to me. That was the philosophy of the 12 meter boats, as best I understand.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Not really--the wing keel and other design innovations came from the twelves. The overall boat had to fit into a complex equation involving many measurements that, when calculated together, came out to 12 meters. The philosophy of the AC has always been to promote design and construction innovation, to see which "country" (?) has the best stuff. For a while, the Kiwis did... <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arlyn: They're moving the whole rig from NZL81 to NZL82 as we speak, intending to be ready to race tonight (tomorrow afternoon there). The way things look, they won't need any more spares--it'll be over after the next race, whether their mast stays up or not.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/28/2003 15:05:32

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 17:42:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The announcers mentioned that the mast is worth $700,000.00

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

It may well have cost $700,000.00 but it is apparantly "worth" quite a bit less.

This event(?), the "Macgreggor Cup", has been among the biggest duds in sports history and I think they may well have killed the cup once and for all unless drastic changes for the next challenge are announced soon.

By the way, I remember reading that one of the reasons the twelves were killed off is that they cost too much which seems a little odd in the light of $700,000.00 masts.

Mark, Silver Girl '83 Catalina 25

Edited by - oldsalt on 02/28/2003 18:08:18

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 17:45:38

Don,
I think it was televised. It was about 9-9:30 p.m. when I turned the channel to ESPN and watched; first a batten at the top of the mast break and left NZL unwilling to enter into a tacking duel, then the bow came off a wave, buried into the next, the boat shuddered slightly and SNAP, the mast breaks.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 17:59:03

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Even though I'm not a racer, one-design racing in identical boats makes oh so much more sense to me. That was the philosophy of the 12 meter boats, as best I understand. Brooke

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Brooke, 12 meters are not one designs, nor are the vessels identical at all.

They are built to a rule within which the designer must develop his strategy according to his particular philosophy and the expected conditions. The 12 in 12 meter referrs to a rule wherein all of the performance parameters such as displacement, length of waterline, sail area, draft, length over all etc. must add up to the number 12 according to a fairly complex mathematical formula.

Performance enhancing features carried penalties ie: for enhanced sail area, the designer could take a penalty in extra displacement or reduced waterline length.

The designers had quite a bit of leeway within the 12 meter rule to build boats that were quite different.

Mark, Silver Girl '83 Catalina 25

Edited by - oldsalt on 02/28/2003 18:02:17

Edited by - oldsalt on 02/28/2003 18:10:08

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 07:34:14

Well, yes, I know 12 meters are not one designs. And I know wing keels came from the Aussie 12 meter AC boat years ago. So, let me restate the point I was trying to make:

I believe the real "sport" in sport comes from human beings testing their tactical intelligences and their physical abilities against each other, and not their engineering skills. As a resident of the South, I cannot understand the fascination with stock car racing, the success of which relies so heavily upon the durability and efficiency of a machine as opposed to the physical abilities of a driver (yes, yes, I know that there are crucial game-winning tactics necessary in driving, and that car - or boat - design is a test of skill and intelligence). When an "athlete" can lose because of mechanical equipment failure, that to me is not a real sport.

So, forget what I said about 12 meters. Let's put the AC in Catalina 25s (or the one-design of your choice) and let them duke it out. For me, Olympic racing or college racing or kids going in circles in Optimists are so much more honest and interesting and sportsmanlike than trillionaires in throw-away boats plastered with advertising logos. Then we'll know who are the better sailors, not because they had more money to spend, but because they were smarter and more skilled and physically better.

Brooke

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 11:44:12

Well, to carry this on a bit... It seems that Americans loved the America's Cup format when it displayed the superiority of American engineering, design, construction, and even sailing skills (at least compared to the Brits). Then, some other countries weaseled into the competition--in particular, some where sailing is the national passion. They out-designed us (we couldn't imagine that), and they out-sailed us (we should have expected that, but didn't).

Dennis Connor continually raised the financial bar, building multiple new boats for each compaign, funding basic research, and hiring teams of lawyers, until the only way to compete was with either billionaire backing or heavy-duty corporate sponsorship. But that wasn't enough to save America from the "sailing countries." Now, we can't even get into the finals of the competition we once dominated. Suddenly, we aren't interested in design and engineering any more--there's nothing in it for our egos.

I remember loving that nobody could take the Cup from us--even when everyone used our sail technology... I can see now that there is nothing inherent about Americans that make them better sailors, and the countries that put their best talent and energy into designing boats can beat us at that, too. (Our best talent puts its energy into designing Web sites, shuffling financial instruments, and buying baseball teams.)

Americans who are still paying attention love that NZL82 has fallen apart, but get no pleasure from the victor being just more Kiwis on a Swiss boat. If that were Stars and Stripes stretching out the lead and then sailing past the crippled NZL82, Americans would be crowing about our superior boats. But the Kiwis, Italians, and Aussies took all the fun away from us.

What to do about this "debacle"? Well, I suspect that New Zealanders would even agree on one suggestion: Turn this back into a contest between countries, where the boats are designed and built by citizens of the respective nations, and the crews and afterguards are also citizens. We aren't going to get the money out of this thing and still have it as the pre-eminent sailing contest. As for "making sailing look like a rich man's sport", professional baseball, football, and basketball teams are owned by obscenely rich men--yet children, students, and adults play those games all over the country. The rich man's version is what generates that interest.

OK, I'm stepping down... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 12:43:16

"When an "athlete" can lose because of mechanical equipment failure, that to me is not a real sport."

I don't have a problem with athletes using mechanical equipment in their sport(hockey, downhill skiing, baseball, pole vaulters, bicyling,...etc), but I do have a problem with calling something a sport when it is judged on artistic ability and presentation(costumes).

The things I don't consider true sporting events include some gymnastic events(like floor excercises, that event with the ball, that event with the ribbon), all figure skating events, snowboarding, freestyle skiing,...etc.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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