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3rd Gen. Rudder Upgrade Key Learnings!

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kirkh
Deckhand

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USA
17 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/28/2003 : 23:47:08

Recently I purchased the 3rd generation rudder for my 2000 wing keel and thought I would pass along my key learnings. Keep in mind that I'm kind of new to the fun of sailboat ownership. I don't know if I did it like it should have been done but it seems like it will work.

1. When using the old brackets/pintles, keep in mind that they will be about 1/4 inch larger than the width of the new rudder. I purchased a 1/8 x 1.5 inch aluminum strip from the hardware store to make up this difference.

2. The rudder will have an indentation on the upper part where the top bracket is supposed to be located. I spent about an hour measuring where the brackets needed to go using the measurements off the old rudder. I then cut the aluminum strips to the correct length and drilled the holes in them for the bolts. Another half hour was spent setting up the drill press to insure the holes were drilled straight. This is where the fun begins <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

3. I then drilled the holes in my bright shiney new rudder. I was pretty proud of my self until I went to try to put the bracket on. One of my aluminum brackets didn't fit flush. I was a little upset since I had taken my time and measured many times to insure it was correct. Here's a picture of what I found:

<img src="http://www.atl.mindspring.com/~kirkh/rudder/DSCF0093.JPG" border=0>

As you can see, one side of the rudder indention was off a little more than an 1/8 inch. I had measured assuming they were symetrical on both sides. This caused my aluminum bracket holes not to line up. I was close enough where I just slightly enlarged the holes and drilled another aluminum strip and got it to fit flush after another hour of work.

Key Learning #1: insure the indentations are at the same place or accomodate accordingly.

4. I then drilled the bottom aluminum spacers and got the bracket installed without much problem.

5. Part 2 of my fun was just beginning. My boat is on the water about an hour from my house. I took the rudder to the boat one chilly day, wrestled to get it attached to the transom (didn't realize how bouyant it would be), and when I went to straighten it out, it was scraping the bottom of the boat. This is because part of this balanced rudder actually goes under the hull and the brackets were a bit too high on the rudder. I actually drilled them in the center of the indentation.

Key Learning #2: When you start talking to the sales associate at West Marine and he hears the term "mis drilled", it is a reflex for them to hand you a box of stuff call Marine-Tex.

6. Hauled the rudder back home, took off the brackets, and learned how to patch holes with Marine-Tex.

Key Learning #3: Don't let your wife's good table spoon sit in a container of left over Marine-Tex. It actually becomes welded to the container. (I actually don't think she's realized it's missing yet but the trash collectors were entertained)

7. Let that set up for a few days and then spent a couple more hours measuring and setting up the drill press and then redrilled the aluminum strips and rudder shifting the holes up about 1/8 inch. I don't really like the fact that the entire upper bracket doesn't fit fully flush on the rudder but I couldn't figure out any other way. Here's what it looks like:

<img src="http://www.atl.mindspring.com/~kirkh/rudder/DSCF0108.JPG" border=0>

8. Drilled the holes for the bottom bracket and hauled it back up to the boat. Success!!! It actually fit fine.

Key Learning #4: The smallest marine paint can is 1 quart and boy is this stuff expensive!

9. Applied 2 coats of the "liquid gold" to the rudder, and here's how finally looked:

<img src="http://www.atl.mindspring.com/~kirkh/rudder/DSCF0109.JPG" border=0>

I hope this posting can help out some of you that are considering upgrading their rudders and maybe prevent you from having the same fun that I had. I'm heading up to the lake tomorrow to take her out for the first time with the new rudder

Kirk
C250WK #490

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 12:18:06

After hearing Kirk's story I'm sure glad that my 3rd gen rudder came with ?brackets/pintles? already installed. All I had to do was transfer the bracket for the wheel steering from the old rudder to the new one.
3rd gen rudder has been on the boat for almost 2 years now. I love it.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 12:57:57

I'm confused. The topic of 2nd and 3rd generation rudders comes up time and time again. Is the 3rd generation rudder for the C-250, or is it also for the C-25? If it is for both the C-250 and the C-25, does the same rudder fit both models, or do you have to order/modify/build a different rudder for the C-25?

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 13:31:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The topic of 2nd and 3rd generation rudders comes up time and time again. Is the 3rd generation rudder for the C-250, or is it also for the C-25? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

To my knowledge this one is just for the c250. They started making them in late 2000 or early 2001. I don't know about the 1st gen rudder my 2000 wk came with the 2nd gen. rudder. Then in May 2001 I upgraded to the 3rd gen.

From watching the c25 forum there must be a different balanced rudder available for the c25.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

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kirkh
Deckhand

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USA
17 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 16:43:13

Results of the lake trial this afternoon, the rudder was AWESOME. Close hauled in 10-12 knots only required a couple of fingers to hold it in place. Beam/broad reach and you could actually let go of the tiller and it would pretty much stay put! Hopefully the wife and kids won't complain about the workout they get heading upwind!

Bryan, I probably should add a Key Learning #5 and that is if they will go ahead and mount the brackets, it's probably extra money well spent if the rudder will clear the bottom. But in my situation, if the holes were drilled exactly in the center of the indentations and the new brackets positioned the pintles at the same location as the old brackets, it would scrape the bottom.

Kirk

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 19:40:00

Buzz - as far as I know there is only 1 "upgrade" for the C25 rudder. The original produced severe weather helm anytime the wind got over 10 k. The 2nd generation one has a portion of the rudder AHEAD of the pivot point (it actually protrudes about an 1" under the skeg). The difference in weather helm is phenomenal - with the new one you can still steer with 2 fingers even when it's stinking out there!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 22:24:24

Kirk or Arlyn
I just got a quote from Catalina for a 3rd gen Rudder, they quoted $195.00 plus $45.00 crating. Is this what you guys had to pay?? Like Arlyn, I don't have any real complaints with my present rudder, I have been able to control the helm pressure by keeping the centerboard partly raised, but I am seeing stress fractures below the pintails in the top quarter of the rudder blade. I agree that they are probably just in the jell coat but who knows??
Bill c250 wb #134 Serendipity

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 14:32:59

Hi again Bill,

My total was $295.16 for rudder, pintles, steering receiver and shipping. Think the rudder was 195, pintles around 30, steering around 45, and then shipping.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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kirkh
Deckhand

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USA
17 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 19:17:09

Bill,

The $195 + $45 is what I paid. Keep in mind that it doesn't include the pintles. Since you have a water ballest, I can't comment on whether or not your old pintles will require the aluminum shims I had to use. If it would require the shims, I would pay the extra amount for the pintles. It'll save you some pain.

Kirk

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 23:49:59

I have the 3rd Generation and I paid $170 including shipping for my 99 250. My new rudder did not fit easily either. Instead of moving the pintals or Grudgens, I had 3/4" cut from the notch that fits just under the stern hull. That cost an additional $100.00 to have cut and re-glassed. It was worth every cent as it cured almost all of the weather helm...proper tuneing of the rigging did the rest,
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK <img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/forum1.gif" border=0>

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