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Pirate-style hull cleaning

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oldengineer1949
1st Mate

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USA
75 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/04/2016 : 11:52:24

Fellow Catalina Lovers,

Poor Pualani Nui has a very dirty bottom!

(Pualani: "EEEK! Skipper! Really??? That's kinda personal!")

Ahem... anyway, as I was saying, old-timey sailors who didn't have ready access to a dry dock (or modern-day sling lift) would find a nice secluded bay, run up close to shore, wait for the tide to go out and careen the ship (lay the boat on its side) to clean the hull (one side at a time). I was wondering, since my marina has no haul-out capability, and the closest marinas I have talked to are up to their ears in beached boats, could I careen Pualani in her slip? Maybe use the jib halyard (extended with additional line if necessary), careen her to one side enough to expose most of one side of her hull, and tie the line off to a convenient dock post. Do y'all think her standing rigging and mast could stand the additional strain? I would just do a quick scrubdown with a brush on a pole, maybe use a diluted solution of Simple Green or Murphy's Soap in a bucket, so as not to muck up the Potomac any more than it already is

.

Your thoughts?

As always, Fair Winds and Following Seas to all y'all,

Al and Bernadette, "Pualani Nui", '82 C25 SR/SK, homeport MCB Quantico

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4024 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2016 : 15:51:57

I'm not really compforatable with your idea so I won't say yes or no. pulling the boat over by a line attached at the top of the mast from the side would put all the stress on the top of the mast and down the single upper shroud. This is unlike being healed over and the forces are spread over the sails, Upper and lower shrouds, Mast and jib sheet. It could be a disaster to a 30+ year old boat. I would favor getting a dink, Tie it to the side and use a brush on a pole first. You could bend the pole into a slight curve to make it easier. Just safer IMO.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3462 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2016 : 16:13:00

I know where you are located and understand your predicament. I am in the upper Potomac River ~ 25 miles north of you in DC on the Anacostia where it joins up with the Potomac River. You could arrange an appointment to have the bottom cleaned at the Washington sailing marina which is just south of me on the VA side. They would charge you about $80-$90 to lift it up on their travel lift and pressure wash the bottom. But since you are 25 miles away that does not make it easy since it is not going to be a one day easy in and out for you. You would have to hope for good weather, sail/motor down, get it pressure washed the next day (their travel lift area is shallow at low tide and so it needs to be done +/- ~2 1/2 hrs from high tide) and then sail/motor back to Quantico. Well, it makes for a nice overnighter + at their marina ?

Another option besides your idea is to contact a local diver that attends to maintenance and cleanings for boats. It will cost ...not sure how much but it is another option. I believe we have such a diver that is either at my marina or visits our marina. But bnot sure who you can get down by you.

When was last time the bottom was painted ? Wash sailing marina can apply ablative or copolymer anti-fouling but that will ,lay-up your boat in their yard for a week.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2016 : 16:52:21

In theory it's do-able. In practice, ??? As long as the mast remains in column, the load on the mast runs straight down the mast to the deck. The mast is held in column by the upper and lower stays. The upper prevents the top of the mast from bending, and the lowers hold the center of the mast in column. It doesn't matter whether the force is being applied by a symmetrical spinnaker, attached to the top of the mast by a halyard, or by a halyard that is being winched down to the dock. A spinnaker is free flying. It isn't attached to the forestay. The load isn't spread along the length of the forestay. The load created by a spinnaker is exerted on the masthead, where the halyard is attached. If the rig can withstand a spinnaker that is overpowering the boat and broaching it, then the rig can also withstand winching it down to the dock.

But, having said that, there are risks. If the rig is not tuned correctly, or, if the stays are weak and subject to breaking, you could snap the mast. Also, you can't just use any dock cleat as an attachment point to winch it down. I have seen many dock cleats that are through-bolted to a plank, but the plank is attached to the dock structure with nails or screws, which might be rusted, depending on their age.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't do it. The better, safer way is to jump in the water with a long handled brush and scrub it that way. The hard part is scrubbing the keel. I wore an old pair of gym shoes, found a way to brace myself, and reached the keel with my feet and used them to scrub the keel. I don't know about your marina, but mine occasionally gets jellyfish. I wouldn't go in without wearing dive skins (about $25. on Ebay), or at least long pants and a long sleeve shirt to protect against them when they're present.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2016 : 20:25:11

You could careen the boat. Nevertheless I'd like to recommend instead doing what some of the sailors at our club do: secure the boat in shallow water and scrub the bottom in relative ease. We have boat lift use included in our club's membership dues at no extra charge yet many of our sailors prefer to scrub their boats near a shallow beach.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 04/04/2016 20:28:13

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2016 : 20:39:16

I've seen some brushes designed for reaching and scrubbing bottoms and keels, but don't remember where... As for the "careening", as I see it, when the boat is healed to one side, whether by the main and jib or by a spinnaker (or all three), most of the force holding the mast up is from the windward upper shroud at the mast-head--sometimes with shock-loads from wind and seas. So I don't see why a steady heeling force from directly opposite that position would be more of a threat to the mast or rig.

Many of us have seen a video of a sailboat passing under a low bridge by hoisting a bags of water with halyards from the mast-head, laying the boat over... Same thing. Here's one.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/04/2016 20:57:16

dasreboot
Admiral

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804 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2016 : 05:08:23

come on down to aquia creeek. they have a travel lift, or you could haul out on my trailer. I go up to quantico all the time. we should sail together!

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2016 : 07:51:10

One of my old neighbors had a long-handled, specially made brush that had a flotation chamber mounted on the side opposite the bristles. As he pushed in under the boat, the flotation device applied upper pressure to the bristles and cleaned the bottom. Not sure where he got it, or how truly effective it was, but I always thought it was a pretty clever, low-tech approach to bottom cleaning.

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4024 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2016 : 09:46:55

What does a very dirty bottom mean? Scum and slime can be brushed off but grassy growth and barnicals need a pressure washer. If its the latter then I would say the bottom needs a.paint job.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3462 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2016 : 10:14:08

As far North as we are on the Potomac River, we mainly have to worry about slime and growth hanging down if the bottom was not cleaned in multiple years. No barnacles. That device that has foam pads for flotation and can be used to clean the bottom from the dock, I forget what they call it but they do advertise it on the web. The thing is that it probably will not do a complete job but probably 75% of it. I thought of another marina that you could also have sailboat services performed besides the Washington Sailing Marina and aquia creek. You could go to the Fort Washington Marina. May have to pass thru their inlet around high tide but their dock area has enough draft and they have a travel lift. The marina has a travel lift but does not do services other than pressure washes which is what you need as a minimum. But there are two facilities located adjacent to the marina that can provide services if you need the bottom painted.

The thing with the waters in the upper Potomac, there are some that water ski and an occasional sailing dinghy that the sailors go over the side but it is not the cleanest waters around and you wouldn't catch me in those waters to clean the bottom unless I had full length waterproof trousers - Too much chance of picking up the flesh eating bacteria !

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4024 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2016 : 12:11:16

Larry,I wonder if you could zip tie a plastic water bottle to the back of a brush as an alternative.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2016 : 12:25:00

My friend and I did the careening thing with a long line from the main halyard on both his Starwind 27 and This Side Up. It does allow easy access to the bottom.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3462 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2016 : 04:29:58

Scott,

Your suggestion may work but it would be hit and miss trying to get something rigged up that would do the job efficiently and over most of the bottom surface. I have also contemplated getting that commercially available flotation brush/pole but my concerns would be just how well it would work with a wing keel. I do not think it would get to or be able to clean the vertical surface of the wing well. Same would go for the fin keel version. Also, if the floatation provided too much buoyant force, it may take away some of the ablative anti-fouling protection maybe more so than a pressure wash. I just do not know. My thought is that you also would not know how even a cleaning it did, it may wind up to be a patchy clean job at best....But perhaps worth a try.

By the way, I found it on the web. It is called "Dri-Driver". You can go to it's dridriver.com website but for some reason, that website is blocked on my work PC. So, you can also try the following link from a vendor: http://www.marinestore.com/DriDiver.html?cart=35427702836951

I do not see myself beaching my boat to clean the bottom - too risky. Also...too embarrassing if there are complications and others are watching. LOL Using the Dri-Driver, is an option but my first choice and most individual's first choice would be to get the bottom cleaned at a marina or haul the boat out on a trailer and repaint the bottom. Last fall it only cost me $82.50 for the Wash Sailing Marina to lift the boat out, pressure wash and drop it back in. You can't beat that ! And on top of that, I like the hamburgers & fries at the marina/Park Dept's snack shop !!

I am also suspecting that this posting question posed regarding methods to clean the bottom...may not be the whole story. I wonder when this boat had it's bottom last cleaned ? and when was last time anti-fouling paint was applied and is the present anti-fouling paint still offering some protection with anti-slime properties ? My boat with Interlux Micron Extra is a copolymer and I can get 3-4 years out of it max with an annual pressure washing.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

wanderer13
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2016 : 08:07:00

I believe in theory, the idea of using your main halyard to heel over the boat is sound. I have seen a sailor use this technique in combination with a kedge to pull a grounded sailboat off an oyster bed.

However, I think in your scenario, it should not be done. I would not place the trust in your rigging, or the anchor point on the dock. If any of it fails, the 4500# boat could come down on top of you. I recommend using the brush Larry recommended and then taking a trip to find a boat lift. It would also be a good opportunity to take a look at the condition of your bottom.

Best of luck!

1981 Catalina 25 FK/TR

oldengineer1949
1st Mate

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75 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2016 : 08:56:42

All y'all are awesome!

Many good observations, many good suggestions. I must confess I do not know the last time Pualani was put on the hard for bottom maintenance. I can't even tell (without careening her) if she has ablative bottom paint or not. I do have some alternatives: our local yacht club (Quantico) does an annual pilgrimage to Coles Point Marina, further south on the Potomac, on the Virginia side (south of Colonial Beach, I believe). The Marina owner and operator was a former Commodore of the QYC, so he gives nice discounts to club members. I checked, and Coles Point does a nice Spring haulout package (haul, pressure wash, paint (!) and splash) for 23.50/ft. I just joined, so we'll see if I can take advantage of that option.

Another option I have is (wait for it) Keelhauling! *chuckle* I suggested using the cat, but the Admiral nixed that. However, I can build a raft of maybe 4 stiff scrub brushes, tie lines to both sides,
sweet-talk the Admiral into helping me, then both of us walk opposite side rails, scrubbing the brush assembly by each of us pulling on the lines, keeping the brushes in contact with the hull. Might take longer than a nice pressure wash, but a whole lot cheaper. All I am looking for at this time is a quick 80% solution, until I can afford the time and expense of a full haulout. Also, I will follow up with dasreboot, for sure! Aquia is just south of Quantico, and we may be able to start up a mini-fleet of Catalinas on the Potomac! Stay tuned.

Fair Winds and Following Seas to all y'all,

Al and Bernadette, "Pualani Nui", '82 C25 SR/SK, homeport MCB Quantico

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4024 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2016 : 11:28:00

Your keelhauling idea is not new and is usually done with a strip of shag carpet say 1ftx4ft with the lines tied to each end. Two people walk the carpet strip along the bottom scrubbing as you go. It works OK for power boats but not so good on a sailboat because the keel is in the way.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2016 : 18:26:35

I found a DriDiver in the dumpster on my boat after bought it. I've never used but will give it a shot next weekend if I can find the time to go down to the boat. I'll let you know how it works out.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2016 : 07:46:37

While more costly and less convenient, I would have the boat hauled at a yard, such as the Quantico option, and while the boat is out of the water inspect the bottom thoroughly. What shape are the through-hulls, is there and if so how pronounced is, the "Catalina smile" what shape is centerboard/keel, the rudder and pintails, etc. etc. I would want to start off ownership knowing all I can so I could plan maintenance and know if anything was in immediate need of correction.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2016 : 11:02:48

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

While more costly and less convenient, I would have the boat hauled at a yard, such as the Quantico option, and while the boat is out of the water inspect the bottom thoroughly. What shape are the through-hulls, is there and if so how pronounced is, the "Catalina smile" what shape is centerboard/keel, the rudder and pintails, etc. etc. I would want to start off ownership knowing all I can so I could plan maintenance and know if anything was in immediate need of correction.

Toward that end, I had a pre-purchase professional survey done. It included testing the hull, deck, cockpit and cabin top with a moisture meter, checking the electrical system, checking the outboard cooling passages with a laser temperature meter, and giving me a written report of prioritized things to address. It was all done "on-the-hard." I was invited to attend and ask questions--it was very helpful. Later, based on the boat's age, my insurance company wanted a survey report, and I had it--so it served two purposes. An outboard-powered C-25 is pretty easy to survey, so it should cost a little less than similar boats with inboards. I think mine was around $350, which felt like money well spent. A boat with wet, rotten deck coring, for example, could be almost impossible to sell at any price.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/10/2016 11:04:20

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