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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

C250 WB with twin bilge keels?

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zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/14/2016 : 21:54:24

Being an avid follower of the adventures as shown on http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/ or "keep turning left", on U Tube around Great Britain I'm tempted to either trade our boat for a trailerable Centaur26 with twin bilge keels or... explore the idea of glassing twin bilge keels to a C250WB which will add the ability to beach the boat anywhere in tidal waters.

Following is a review of the Centaur25
http://www.boatus.com/boatreviews/sail/WesterlyCentaur26.asp

I'am looking forward to your comment, suggestions and ideas.
How practical is adding twin bilge keels to a C250WB
Could or should the centre board be eliminated altogether
What would be some of the structural consequences, if any
Would it make a difference in sailing ability, speed, pointing, etc.
What materials, shape and location would you suggests to add the twin keels
Does anyone know if it has been done before

By the way... don't forget to enjoy some of the 800 plus videos...

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2016 : 07:52:34

IMO, Jack Horner's review is spot on. He says "...the Centaur is twin bilge keel design and, while there are any number of practical reasons for considering this arrangement in some areas of the world, in my opinion, the negatives clearly outweigh the positives for the average Chesapeake Bay cruiser. Perhaps most importantly the increased wetted surface and the separate hydrodynamic characteristics of each keel as the vessel heels detract considerably from speed and pointing ability in an area where light winds are common."

Two bilge keelers (I think they're Westerlys) have been on the hard at my marina for the 13 years that I have been there. Apparently, nobody wants to sail them or buy them. Their weight would make them more of a chore to trailer and to launch. A bilge keel boat would make sense in an area that commonly has a wide tidal range with boats left sitting on the bottom at low tide, but I see it mostly as a niche boat. As a niche boat, the question is not whether it is the perfect boat in every respect, but whether it meets your particular needs.

As a general principle, I think it is unwise to make major structural alterations to a boat for several reasons. First, unless you really know something about yacht design, you could end up with a boat whose keel and sailplan cannot be balanced properly. When you decide to sell the boat, prospective buyers are likely to shy away from it, because they won't want a bilge keel boat, and, even if they do, they won't know whether your modifications are functional and structurally sound.

Instead of making structural modifications to a boat, I think it's better to sell the boat you have and buy one that was designed and built as a bilge keeler. The problem with that is that there are very few modern boats being built with bilge keels, so you're limited to buying and upgrading an old boat, and many of those boats were built with narrow beams and primitive interior accommodations. That's a hard choice for people who like to do extended cruising.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2016 : 14:21:45

How practical is adding twin bilge keels to a C250WB?
Very shallow "strakes" not too far off center, purely for stability on the beach, might be feasible, not requiring a lot of structural strength, but are likely to change the helm balance and performance of the boat. And they'd probably require some holes in the bottom of the boat--possibly where you have the ballast tank.

Could or should the centre board be eliminated altogether?
Not without the knowledge of a naval architect about the structure, CLR characteristics, and even fore-aft balance of the hull when adding actual keels with any depth and weight.

What would be some of the structural consequences, if any?
That depends on whether you go for "keels" or "strakes", I'd say. The former have major structural consequences--particularly if you run into anything.

Would it make a difference in sailing ability, speed, pointing, etc.
Yup. More drag and (probably) unknown lift characteristics unless designed by an expert.

What materials, shape and location would you suggests to add the twin keels?
I doubt anyone in this organization is qualified to answer that. And I doubt Gerry Douglas will approve.

Does anyone know if it has been done before?
Not I. But if somebody tried it, they likely won't want to admit it now.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/15/2016 22:23:20

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2016 : 08:52:04

Hey--I have another idea to go with Steve's suggestion to buy a boat built for your objectives--something that would be more modern, comfortable, fast, and stable on a beach than a Westerly: A multi-hull.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2016 : 10:21:15

Although I did see a C-22 swing keel on the hard with added twin supports to protect the swing keel and keel trunk and a C-25 (Jaguar 25) in England with twin keels sitting in the mud at low tide, the vast majority of twin keel boat pictures on the web show boats with the rudder UNDER the boat, presumably for a third point of support when the tide goes out. Seems risky to have a twin keel boat with a stern hung rudder, unless the keels are fairly long laterally.

Speaking of Jaguar 25's, here's one with bilge keels for sale in the United Kingdom for about $7.500:
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/Jaguar-25-2886089/Pwllheli/United-Kingdom#.WC3oFPSVk1g

Another one listed in Yachtworld has feature I've not ever seen here. The starboard settee was shortened to about where the divider for the water tank and battery compartments is, and a nav station created. Interesting!

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/17/2016 10:40:05

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2016 : 10:45:04

If you do a search for Jaguar 22 and click on the images listing and scroll through them, you will see 2-3 pictures of a C-22 equivalent boat with swing keel and the twin bilge support pieces like the one we saw in England.
The Catalina manufacturing plant in England might have something similar for the C250 if they build them there. Might be worth a call to the home office in Woodland Hills, CA to find out. If so, they might be able to send a retrofit kit to you in Canada.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/17/2016 10:50:03

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2016 : 13:00:17

Well... I guess we'll have to leave the C250 WB as is after your comments, input and further research.

What I was so enthusiastic about was the fact that the layout of the trailerable 25 footer C250, in my opinion except of course headroom, is unequaled.

To combine this with a beach-able boat could make this even better. As you have pointed out it will be at the cost of many things including sailing ability, design uncertainties and a very small segment, if at, all of the resale market.

Edited by - zeil on 11/19/2016 13:01:06

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2016 : 19:34:29

We had a twin bilge keel boat at my club for years. A sharp looking 22 ft boat (I can not recall the brand/model) The owner claimed to have been given the boat, liked the day-sailing features but hated not being able to point, and relative slow sailing speed. I have always wondered iff all bilge keel boats performed that yay. Clearly with severe tides, the feature has it's merits but for most who want a mix of speed, agility and utility I would stick to a single keel or centerboard -- or go to the multihull side.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2016 : 11:05:21

We had a lot of them decades ago, this was one of the last before it went North.

Frank Hopper

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2016 : 18:18:48

Don't know the brand, but thats was the one in our little cove looked like!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2016 : 07:13:04

quote:
explore the idea of glassing twin bilge keels to a C250WB which will add the ability to beach the boat anywhere in tidal waters.

I'm a little confused, Isn't the 250WB capable of this already?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2016 : 15:37:27

Vivacity and Alacrity were the two most common at Cheney.