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Rating numbers for various models

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/19/2003 : 09:44:29

Racing Friends: Perhaps I should have sent this directly to Duane as measurer, but maybe he will ring in here, too. I am in hopes of getting more of our little 10 boat fleet of C25s to race this summer. Last year we got four boats out for a one design regatta, and several of us raced PHRF.

My question is this: How much variation is there between the different models when it comes to rating/speed potential? I know that my C25 rates 247 out here with an assymetrical chute, while I rated 238 with a racing chute and pole. I think I am rated at about 259 w/o chute. How should we be handling these variations in One Design, do you think?

Also, while last season, the four boats in our One Design included a TR and 3 SRs; one of the SRs was a wing. It turned out that a SR/SK won the 5 race regatta and the TR finished last. However, he did not fly a chute while the SRs did. For this reason, the SRs chose to go sans spinnaker during the last two races. This year, we have just added a member who owns a TR/FK. Truthfully, I would love to simply sail One Design, one on one. However, I want to be fair to all competitors. Does one boat have a significant edge? Or, should we sail level until it becomes determined over time that one keel or one sail plan unfairly faster and that the others can't compete? I would listen to all ideas and plans....

Thanks,

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR
Fleet 94 on the Columbia River

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 11:37:46

Gary, IMHO you cannot fairly race "One Design" with a mix of TR and SR. Really the only time the SR's are competitive is when the TR's have to reef and the SR's don't! In light air a TRFK should win every time. On Canyon Lake we have a 7 second differential between them. The keel configuration should not matter, as the swingers are (or should be!) faster to weather and the fixed are faster downwind (as long as the swingers keep their keels down!).
If you don't have enough boats to have a fleet for each, I think that the fairest route is to run PHRF, using your local differentials. (BTW - we don't adjust our numbers for chutes/no chutes. With our masthead rigs I don't believe that a chute is much of an advantage over a poled-out 155% genoa.)
Your numbers confirm that the NW has the highest numbers anywhere - with my TRFK I rate 221!
Derek, PHRF Committee, Canyon Lake

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 23:06:28

Yes, but we've been over this before. I am sure that all of our numbers must be higher for most all boats. We have a huge fleet of Cal 20s here on the river which rate 290 something. They are sailed by some great sailors alright, but I have trouble keeping up with the slowest of 'em....In PHRF, they win everything here on the Columbia River. I think we need to have a Nationals out West. I would love to have you come out, Derek. Gosh, why don't you fly out this summer and crew on my SR Encore! ?. I am planning on a week long regatta down the river 100 miles and part way back the last week of July. If I do the cruising class, there are only 4 of the 6 legs I can do, but 2 years ago I crewed on a Cal 20 when I wasn't eligible to skipper. BTW: I finished 2nd in class that year to a Ranger 24. In cruising class, all boats over about 220 or so sail level with each other.......Come on out to the great Northwest. We have great sailing during most of the summer.

Thanks for the input,

Gary B.
# 685 SR/SK

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 08:08:27

Gary,

In each particular area your variances between the boats will be different. You should not, however have a different rating for racing with/or without a spinaker. The JAM (jib and Main) number listed on your PHRF certificate is only if you are racing JAM with all the other boats. Then, that number is used. I am about 85% certain that the numbers are not interchangeable.

The use of sails, should not make a difference so long as they are within the size allowed for PHRF. (The asymetrical being the exception...although its most likely out of the proper size range)

To give you an example:

On Lake Erie the PHRF ratings are as follows

Swing keel Tall Rig - 222
Fixed keel Tall Rig - 219
All Standard Rigs - 228

In most instances, you will see adjustments in a factor 3 seconds.

Since you do have someone with an asymetrical racing, I would switch up my courses from a windward-leeward to a triagle (possibly every other wee?) - thus evening out the playing field. Or a combined down and back and around the triangle. You may also have a weeknight short series which is only JAM and a weekend race run it as 3 separate series a JAM, a PHRF and a Combined. Throw some stipulations on there that the winner of an individual series must race at least x% of the combined races. Work the numbers so people have to show up (but remember too that you can't expect people to blow away every weekend and every Wednesday night to sail.

If your trying to build the fleet, try also throwing in a crew reversed roles night, where you work the foredeck and the foredeck helms. Or - a crew swaps boats night, skipper stays. You'll develop comradarie amongst your fleet this way.

Hope this helps
dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 10:14:16

Gary - those are some excellent ideas from Duane.
I thank you for your invite - but I should warn you that the Skipper for whom I crewed in the C22 Nationals remarked that I was a much better skipper than a crewman...<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> A 100 mile race certainly intrigues me.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 11:57:55

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> We have a huge fleet of Cal 20s here on the river which rate 290 something. They are sailed by some great sailors alright, but I have trouble keeping up with the slowest of 'em....In PHRF, they win everything here on the Columbia River. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Gary, I'll bet the fastest of the Cal 20s are dry-sailed, and if that's true, then the only time you will probably be able to beat them will be right after you fair your bottom and keel and launch it. We have a good sailor who dry-sails his boat at our lake, and he can finish first almost anytime he races, because his bottom is pristine, while ours are not. Sailors of small boats are able to dry-sail them, and that's a huge advantage. Their boats are faster and perform better in every respect, and they stay that way all summer. The rest of us prep our boats at the beginning of the summer, and they are fast then, but they get progressively slower as the summer wears on, because of all the algae and crud that accumulates on the bottom, despite our best efforts to scrub them clean. The dry-sailed Cal 20s are sailing faster than their handicaps, and the other boats are sailing slower than their handicaps. This is why the big America's Cup boats are dry-sailed, and have their bottoms wet-sanded every day. If we want to have a chance to beat a boat that is dry-sailed, we have to do it early in the season, while our boats are still clean and fast.

If you dry-sailed your C-25, and prepped your bottom and keel as well as they do, you would be much more competitive with them, but it's usually impracticable to dry-sail a C-25.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 12:42:12

That's one reason that I keep "This Side Up" on a hydro-hoist <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 02:09:44

Actually, the Cal 20s are NOT generally drysailed, believe it or not. Even the fastest of the fleet is wet sailed, but the owner/skipper (a good friend of DC's AC sewer man) dives on the boat and scrubs before every race. All I can do is scrub the bottom with a curved handled brush I made. It helps, but doesn't ge the bottom spotless. I do try to power wash the bottom several times during the racing season......

The deal is....many of this fleet are SERIOUS racers...many of them have large sea-going race boats as well. The guy who is usually 3 or 4 in the fleet has a 70 foot sled that has set and broken the record from Calif. to Hawaii in the Pacific Cup. (and built Ocean Planet, currently in the Around Alone). Others race Soverel 33s and Peterson 40s, etc. These are pretty sophisocated racers. I know that they all learn from each other in terms of tuning, etc. (BTW: The shrouds are so loose on the Cals that I wonder how the stick stays up!) They know how to read wind shifts and river currents much better than I probably ever will. Anyway, I just thought I would mention that it's not the drysailing that makes the difference, although that is a fair assumption. They just have me beat in so many areas. I just wish I could beat the slowest ones, but that's rare....

Derek: the 6 Pac runs in legs, of course. I would have trouble keeping myself off the tiller, but I would consider trading off.......I have done reasonably well myself, but certainly don't have any National experience.....I am serious, though. I don't have a crew firmed up yet. If you want to come out at the end of July, even for a leg or two....give me a whistle. Encore! is a swing/standard, but I have a good inventory, (153, 150, 130, 110, 80, a brand new main, and an assymetrical chute). The bottom is do for a repaint in the next week or so, but I don't use VC17. Standing rigging is upgraded and all new running rigging.

Normally, only the last leg back upriver for 25 miles or so is downwind. Very often the winds here are very good; in stretches, a reefed main and a 130 are needed to be optimal since it's a long beat...Think it over....I promise, you'd see some really serious dudes out here, but they don't sail C25s.

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 13:21:39

Gary - do you have firm dates yet?
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2003 : 05:10:04

Derek: Yes, this year's 6 Pac Race begins near Portland on Saturday, July 26. The first leg is down river (usually a beat) for about 25 miles or so to St. Helens, Oregon. Usually the course rounds a bouy and there is a short run to the finish. The night is spent camping at Sand Island, near St. Helens. The second leg on Sunday is from St. Helens, again downriver to near Stella, WA, between Cathlamet and Longview, WA, (should you have access to a map). It is probably a 25 mile leg or so. We overnight at a little marina in Cathlamet, WA. Monday is a non-race day for sailing or motoring downriver about 25 miles or so to Astoria, OR, just 10-15 miles from the Columbia River bar. Tuesday is a bay race out towards the bar for the fast and slower racing boats only. I THINK I will be in the cruising class, so this will be a day off, or one can often hitch a ride on another boat. Two years ago I crewed on a short handed Cal 20.

Wednesday is a bay race, open to local Astoria race boats as well as the Six Pac fleet. I did it two years ago....had real trouble setting the chute on the run. Finished 22 out of about 32 boats, but about 7 big boats got grounded on a sandbar! ( Some didn't get free until nearly midnight!). Thursday is again a day for just the serious racing classes. Friday, August 1 is a short upwind leg around a bouy, then a long spinnaker run back up to Cathlamet at the 40 mile mile mark on the river. Then it's over. I would love to get my boat to Portland for a single handed race the next day, but I don't think I can do the 65 miles or so in time. We often buck a current of 1-3 knots. Even motor-sailing hard (I have hit 9+ on the KM with good air), the progress over the bottom slows me to 5 knots or so. That makes this a 12 hour trip upriver and the race starts at 2 PM on Saturday!

If you want to come, I will certainly be glad to put you up and cover your expenses while you're here. I can't offer the travel expense, though, I am on a pretty tight budget as a lowly college prof....If you want to just come for a leg or two.....that would be good, too. I do not have a good steady crew, but I have one guy who proved really good on the foredeck when we won the One Design last summer. Otherwise, I go with my 17 year old daughter and some of her friends, sometimes. I also know a few college age kids, but they don't know a lot about sailing. I end up being skipper, tactician, navigator, etc.. but I do okay.

At this point, I think the cruising class is the right one for me in this race. Two years ago, (the last running) I finished second in a class of 6 "slower" cruising boats. We all have to race level, as all of us had ratings over 220 or something. There was a Ranger 24 (which won), me, an Ericson 27, a Hunter 26, a larger, heavy cruising boat ?, and somebody else, I forget. I had to beat them head to head, even though my boat rated slower. Even the Ranger 24 rates about 9 seconds per mile faster.

Gary B.
Encore!
#685

Still waiting for the new main.....trying to get a new coat of paint on the bottom this week? Other maintenance awaits, but it's spring break week.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2003 : 05:16:00

Derek: I forgot to add: if the 6 Pac is too long for you, our C25 One Design regatta will be a 5 race affair on Sat, Aug. 9 and Sun, Aug 10. We won it last year, but the other guys are pissed and hungry!!!! We hope to have a bigger fleet this summer. There are 10 boats in our local fleet, but not all race. I hope for 5-6 at least, though. The currents on this river make mark roundings and starts a whole new ballgame for a lake sailor. I'll bet on it! I would love to learn from you.

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2003 : 05:31:01

Duane: I do NOT have different numbers now. The first year i raced, I OPTED for a non-spinnaker rating. In PHRF-NW, the Cat 25 SR of mine was rated at 257 (maybe 259?). I had to measure my largest jenny, as well as the main. There were other factors, too, like, "does your outboard drag in the water on both tacks, one tack?", etc. The second year, I measured a racing spinnaker that I had built from a kit and was rated for it at 238. Then, last year, I got rated for the asymmetrical chute. I measured, of course, and was rated at 247. I have the rating certificate.

As for the racing ideas: these are great, but we are on a navigable river with CG regs, etc. it's quite a hassle to schedule and run our own races...There are a number of buoys in place and several course possiblities, depending on wind strength and direction. Every Friday there is a beer can race, with a committee from different yacht clubs each week. We C25ers can opt to try your ideas on those nights, and we may.....

Otherwise, we do our One Design Regatta in conjunction with a yacht club which hosts it each season. Each One Design Fleet needs at least 3 boats. We decided within the C25 group to race level last season, even though one of the four of us last year was a tall rig. I think we will usually opt to run our races with the rules and committee boats of whatever yacht club is hosting an event each week. I appreciate your input and ideas.

I hope I made some sense out of this response.

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2003 : 13:36:56

Gary - you REALLY are beginning to pique my interest! I shall give it serious consideration - I've never raced in tidal nor current conditions so it would be an interesting learning experience!
<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
Incidentally, I've never been to the Great N-W, but Judy has an older sister in Coos Bay and her (Judy's) son-in-law was 2-I-C in Astoria until he got his Captaincy and is now Commandant of the C.G. Station in Bar Harbor, Maine.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 08:23:23

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
"does your outboard drag in the water on both tacks, one tack?",
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That seems very odd. I would take the motor off the boat when racing PHRF.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 11:47:41

Duane - our PHRF protocol specifies that you must have an operable motor "in position" on the boat.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 14:11:45

Wow - The only place I have ever seen that was for our Association Class rules. It just seems counter-intuitive to racing. Around here, the second you get out to the racecourse, someone is removing the outboard and stowing it over the keel in the cabin. If the wind is blowing from the right direction, some people will leave the outboard in the trunk of their car and sail out just to lose the weight.

That could really put a wrench in the tactical planning if the favored start/side of the course happens to be the tack you have your outboard acting like a sea anchor, or at the least, offsetting the heel angle. 

 To give you an example of how prevalent taking the motor is up here -

We raced The Flying Wasp in the final race of the year (20+ mile Seadog regatta) late last fall. Since we normally don't race the boat, and weren't sure how long we wanted to "fart around" in the cold weather we left the motor on the bracket. 20+ knot winds helped out though and sped up the racing time. My wife, who races on a Tartan 10 finished light years ahead of us was watching the finishes from the shore. (Only 2 races out of the year finish that close to land so there is usually a good on shore fan club). As we finihsed, he distinctly heard a comment somthing to the effect of "look at these idiots, they left the outboard on the bracket for the entire race." (Harvey and I are still debating if she heard it or said it!!!)

I guess rules are rules though...Speaking of which, if anyone is interested here is the link to the PHRF rules on Lake Erie. http://www.phrf-le.org/classrules.doc

Also on a related topic, this is a link I found that gives a ballpark PHRF estimate. I am not sure as to the validity of this formula, but I have "done the math" on a number of different boats and find it gives an approximate number (provided all boats racing utilize this formula).

http://www.well.com/user/pk/YRAphrf-sf.html


D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 10:03:27

Duane: I think the only boats here on the river that remove their OBs are the Cal 20s I have talked about. Their engines are in wells, so one can't tell by looking at them. Their OBs are only 3-4 horsepower, so they have to be towed by larger boats when moving any distance in light wind or to avoid a beat into big seas, etc.. I watched a Hunter 52 towing a parade of 5-7 of them during the "delivery section" of the Six Pac two years ago! I was able to motor at above hull speed into a headwind of 20 knots or so.

I am a racer who converted from pure cruising the C25, so my outboard is a very heavy 4 stroke Yamaha 9.9. There is no way I could remove it from the bracket over the stern rail even if I wanted to. The OB weighs 100 # plus and is hooked up to my battery bank, etc. It's a big job to remove it. Actually, with the Garhauer bracket and the engine tipped up, it "barely" touches the water, and that's only when on a starboard tack when heeling about 20 degrees. The rest of the time she's clear of the water. The engine is heavy, yes, but with the currents we face here on the river, I have not seriously considered using anything else, especially since I cruise as much as race, and for weeks at a time I cruise exclusively. I suppose I should get my old 6 hp 2 stroke Evinrude fired up for use in regattas or the 6 Pac, though. It would probably work to get me out to the course for these longer races when removing the Yammy might be worth it..........I may try it.

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 11:16:03

"This Side Up" has an 8hp electric start Nissan. Even if it was allowed we couldn't take it off the boat with any ease. When racing ithe bracket is raised all the way, the motor tilted and locked and then we throw a loop of line around the bottom of the shaft and tie it to the stern rail. This makes the motor horizontal and we never get drag on either tack. (It also gives the opposition an extra 7' to get an inside overlap...<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>)
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2003 : 05:14:13

Yo, Derek: did you get an email from me with more information about racing out here? I tried sending you one directly, but since I hadn't received a response, I thought maybe it didn't work. Are you thinking about a trip to the great NW?

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/27/2003 : 19:52:54

Gary - nope, no e-m from you. Apparently the link in our profiles doesn't always work. It's safer to copy and paste it into your e-mail box.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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