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Limits and upgrades?

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jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/12/2003 : 10:17:50

OOPS - FIRST POSTED THIS WITH KNOTS, NOT MPH. WE WERE OUT IN FORCE 6 NOT FORCE 7!

The design limitations and capabilities of our boats are frequent topics here. I don't mean to rehash old topics but I am looking for specific ways to beef up my boat.

The winds in Maine can be significant, especially during the early and late months of the season. Of the last four weekend days I've sailed this season, the winds have been over 20 mph with significantly higher gusts each time. Our sail yesterday was done under double reefed main and reefed genny in about 28 mph steady with higher gusts. The boat sailed fine with the reduced sailplan. With a clean bottom we were absolutely flying with speeds up to 7.1 knots close hauled.

My issue is that I have to be pushing the design limits sailing the boat that hard. My crew noted what appeared to be a shift in the coach roof as if the entire deck were shifting to leward. I'm not sure its not an illusion but I don't want to find out the hard way.

I'm noting that the leward upper shrouds are still going awfully loose when the boat is powered up. I have them tightend as much as I dare. I'm actually thinging of backing off a bit because they're so tight. The rest of the rig is set up appropriately. Nonetheless, things get loose enough that I'm afraid the wires are going to jump out of the spreaders (yes they're wired in) or something. More importantly, I think, the fact that the rig is set up that tight and still going slack has to mean substantial flex somewhere in the boat.

I love my little boat and don't want to break her. I understand that she was built to a price point. I would, however, like ideas on how to beef her up enough to survive the conditions we experience regularly here.

Your thoughts appreciated,

Justin

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

Edited by - jandrus on 05/12/2003 10:26:00

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 17:59:11

Justin,

Not very familiar with the c25... but I doubt if its hull movement...more likely if the spreaders have even a little aft rake... when hauling on the backstay tensioner to depower the rig...which may have been done during those conditions... the effect will be to pull the mast truck aft ... relaxing the uppers slightly which will manifest itself on the leeward upper. Take a look at and compare the leeward upper with the tensioner hardened and off. Think there will be an obvious difference. And, using the tensioner is the right thing to do in those conditions...

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 18:50:49

Arlyn - you're good. The backstay adjuster on my boat at the moment is screwdrive stuck through the turnbuckle, but the rig was set up way tight since it's been blowing like that all season so far. I'll relax the backstay some next time I go out and see what happens.

BTW - what do you think is the best way to install a backstay adjuster on a boat with a single chainplate? I don't care about being class legal - there's no class to race around here.

Justin - O'day Owners' Web

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 20:19:13

I think with reduced sail area, and the boat being under control, you shouldn't be overstressing the components. I wouldn't worry. Relax and enjoy the sail, she's not going to come apart.

If you were being slammed around and under marginal control... that's a different matter.

-- CB

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 20:28:18

Justin:

How tight is tight? Check with Derek Crawford about how much waving of the leeward shrouds is OK--I understand his flap in the breeze... I'm used to seeing the leeward aft lower go very limp--not so much the upper on this particular boat.

Being able to tension an adjustable backstay is different from having your whole rig very tight. The backstay adjustable backstay, when tensioned against an otherwise somewhat loose forestay, does two things: (1) it hardens the forestay, flattening the luff of the jib, and (2) it pulls against the forward lower shrouds to bend the mast back, flattening the main. That's why Derek and others race with very loose rigs--they can go from full to flat in a jiffy.

I believe Catalina Direct sells a kit to install a split backstay--presumably including an additional chainplate--but I don't have my Handbook handy. Alternatively, you can buy a hydraulic tensioner that fits on the single backstay--may be a bit pricy and probably requires some rigging work. But you probably had a few spare boat units lying around anyway... <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - Dave B on 05/14/2003 20:46:58

Edited by - on

triley
Captain

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USA
251 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 22:08:32

I can't figure 28 knots pulling the boat apart that way. Many years ago (1980) we spent three days going through a hurricane- pretty minimal- as we travelled back to Kauai from Nihoa and Necker Islands in the Windward Hawaiian Islands. Three days of 80 to 90 knots, and seas that were absolutely out of Victory at Sea brought us into Port Allen on Kauai and to a shower. We doubled up our lines to the surge, even the springs, and lost a line every 6 hours or so. It was wonderfully exciting. Our first visit to the shower at the dock showed each of us to the other (we were 6 aboard) to be just plain black and blue from shoulder almost to knee. We looked like a bunch of Samoan chiefs!
Anyway, the boat - a Cheoy Lee one-off 44 foot sloop- was much the worse for wear. The bow pulpit was twisted back to the anchor locker, and not a single locker below would actually stay closed when we tried to shut them. Oh,Oh!
I am not going to mention that great smahing sound just before we left Nihoa (and before the storm). We thought we had come down on a coral head or something. When the boat was pulled for survey, great tears and parts of Tiger shark teeth were found in the rudder! Something thought we had worn out our welcome on Nihoa, and nature decided that big shark (an 'Aumakua I am absolutely sure)was right.

Tom

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 23:00:14

Justin - yes, indeed my leeward shrouds (all 3 of them) wave in the breeze! It doesn't worry me a bit - they are not supporting anything at that point. Now, if the mast starts to "pump" it's a sign to depower rapidly! If "This Side Up's" rig were as tight as yours, she would be as slow as molasses in January (in Winnipeg...!) My rig tensions (Tall Mast) currently read, from forward aft, 20, 25 and 5 (reading the front of the Loos Guage). The forestay has 8 - 10" sag and the backstay is totally loose (I have a backstay adjuster which is only tensioned when we get overpowered) and we've sailed in 20 knots in that configuration. Try it - you might like it!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 00:52:51

Derek: I just had a new upper shroud made up; the turnbuckle had seized. When I spoke to the rigger, he said that a loose rig causes a lot more shock loading when one tacks or jibes, so serious racers out here often have to replace rigging every few years. Since we often get pretty strong winds out here on the Columbia River, I am loathe to rig Encore! too tight. I am still on the hard finishing projects, etc. I will experiment ASAP. I just thought I would mention this conversation. The rigger did say that a loose rig was efficient in calmer, lighter airs.....When I have seen the photos of This Side Up, the lake seems pretty calm and flat compared to what I often see here in summer.......what do you think?

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Only 2 months until the weeklong Six Pac race!

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 01:55:59

Justin,

On SF Bay a typical day is no wind in the am, 20kts in the pm, and between Alcatraz and Angel Island, gusts to 30.

I've found that Hey Jude likes a set up such that the leeward shrouds are a little wobbly in a brisk wind. Ok, what does that mean? I don't have a loos guage. Before my last mast lowering for maintenance, I had her set up pretty tight.

This set up I raked the mast forward a lot more, and bowed the mast at the spreaders by having tigher forward lower shrouds than the aft lower shrouds. By running a little looser, I can use my adjustable backstay better to flatten my (old) mainsail when the wind comes up.

I followed Bob Holcomb's set up advice: Forestay/backstay tightest, Upper shrouds almost as tight, forward lower next tightest, aft lowers less still. Always checking for potential breaks/bends/corrosion etc.

Hey Jude has a new bow roller/stem fitting with the strap that goes down the bow, with two extra bolts through the anchor locker. I put that on last year as I installed all new standing rigging, also from Catalina Direct.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 08:37:18

Gary B. - on Canyon Lake our "average" winds are 7 - 9 knots - which is about perfect for a loose rigged boat. However, we often have fronts blow through (especially in the Fall & Spring) when we can see 25+ in a few seconds. If it is blowing like stink when we start racing, then I put an extra 2 turns on the turnbuckles, but our rig is still looser than most. Every shroud and stay is carefully checked each time before we leave the dock, and so far we have not had any problems. Even when jibing in high winds, with correct technique you shouldn't throw that much of a strain on the rig - but your rigger's comment was most interesting.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 09:25:01

Thank you for the input everybody. I agree, there is no reason to tighten a rig unless the conditions call for it. The reason I'm wondering this year is because so far every day I've sailed the conditions have called for it. It won't stay like that all summer - by mid-June things settle out - but its been great so far. I just hate the idea of the shrouds jumping the spreaders - but they're wired, so I guess I'll relax some.

Gotta look into a backstay adjuster. I set the backstay tension each time I go out (and sometimes reset it during the day) as appropriate for the conditions, but being able to do it on the fly would be great.

Justin

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 11:13:20

I think the manner in which you set up the mast depends on how you intend to use the boat, and how it is equipped.

If a boat has an adjustable backstay, and you plan to daysail or race it on an inland lake, then Derek’s approach is best. It allows you to depower the sails when beating to windward, and to power them up when you bear off the wind. In the milder conditions that you are likely to encounter on an inland lake, the looseness of the shrouds is not a significant concern.

If a boat has no adjustable backstay, or, if you are going to be sailing in bigger, choppier seas, then the rig should be set up with no bend and almost no slack in the leeward shrouds when they are relaxed. This setup doesn’t permit you to power up or depower the rig in the way that a backstay adjuster does, but it holds the rig secure in choppy seas, when the mast is whipping around in all directions. In those conditions you don’t want much play in the shrouds for the reason given by Gary’s rigger; i.e., it permits shock loading, which can cause a shroud to fail. I raced successfully for many years with my rig set up that way, so I know that it still makes for a very fast boat, although Derek’s approach is slightly faster, especially downwind.

Years ago, when I sailed my old C-22 on Lake Michigan in very choppy conditions with a loosely adjusted rig, the top of the mast whipped back-and-forth as the boat rolled off of waves. Also, the loose lower shrouds permitted the mid-section of the mast to whip slightly out of column. All that movement resulted in a constant, loud banging, as all the various shrouds alternatively came up short and then relaxed again. After we anchored at the end of the day, I snugged up all the shrouds, which made the whole rig much more solid and secure. This explains why I believe in adjusting the rig differently, depending on whether I am racing or cruising, and depending on how rough I expect the seas to become. If I am racing on our inland lake, I tune it one way. If I was sailing to the Bahamas, I would tune it differently.

If you are racing and using an adjustable backstay, you have to set the rig up with a lot of slack in the headstay. If there is no slack in the headstay, then the headstay won’t allow the top of the mast to bend aft when you apply tension to the backstay adjuster. In effect, the backstay adjuster shortens the length of the backstay. When you apply tension to the backstay adjuster, to beat to windward, it will pull the top of the mast aft, and the headstay will become taut. This will depower both the jib and mainsail by flattening them, and by moving the pockets of both sails forward.

With a backstay adjuster, the forward lowers should be adjusted very snugly, because they prevent the lower part of the mast from bending aft when tension is applied to the backstay adjuster. The aft lowers should be slightly loose, so that the middle of the mast is free to bow forward slightly when tension is applied to the backstay adjuster. The aft lowers should be adjusted so that they become taut when the mast is bent as far as you want it to bend. By adjusting the aft lowers in that manner, they prevent you from over-bending the mast. The upper shrouds should be adjusted snugly so that they hold the mast upright and in column laterally. You want to be able to bend the mast fore-and-aft, but not from side-to-side.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 12:09:52

Steve - your explanation is, as always, excellent and makes perfect sense! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 14:40:01

I don't have an adj. backstay but have thinking of cobbing one together. Right now I can't justify the Boat Units for a split back stay, but, I have seen many boats at our lake with a single stay adjuster that uses a block and tackle system. Kind of a boomb vang that leads to a second block that doubles the purchase. People at this site have said that wouldn't work because it pulls to the side. Many of hte boats I have seen have this setup with the back stay being even further to the side. Seems to me it should work and may be a little better even because there is less room taken up on a crouded transom.

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

Edited by - on

Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 00:51:57

Matt/Brigitte
I have a split backstay with a tensioning system that I employ every time I sail. I have seen the system you refer to on a Beneteau 26 that I often race against (and always beat). This boat is set up with a backstay that is shrt. Which is to say, the wire doesn't attach to the chainplates. The wire is set up with a loop at the lower end that they have a block mountd on. Then a rope bridle that attaches to a chainplate on one side of the transom, then it runs up through the block hanging from the bottom of the wire section of the backstay. Then on the other side it attaches to a block and tackle that is very similar to the boom vang I have on my boat, a 3 or 4:1 system. This is attached to a chainplate on the other side of the transom. Similar to the split system I have, but I have wire attached to the chainplates which I feel a lot more comfortable with. They can get a lot more movement out of their set up, but I would't feel good about my rig depending on a series of blocks and lines.
Hope this makes sense(my description) and helps you.
Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

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