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can you fly a sym spinnaker like an asym spin?

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/12/2003 : 16:44:10

is it possible to fly a normal spinnaker without the pole and all that other stuff but instead just rig it the way you would fly an asymetrical. i'm aware that it would be as efficient but would it work better than not flying on at all. (wind conditions aft or abeam)

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 17:38:19

Boy, I don't know. I've flown symetrical chutes racing and asymetrical cruising. Only flown symetricals without a pole for the brief moment the pole was disconnected during a jibe. The sail wanted to collapse and took careful attention to keep it flying.

Unless the chute was made for a smaller boat, I'd think you wouldn't be able to pull the "luff" in tight enough to work it like an asymetrical. Just my guess though.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 18:58:20

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Is it possible to fly a normal spinnaker without the pole and all that other stuff but instead just rig it the way you would fly an asymetrical?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I hope to find that out this season.

I now have both symetrical and asymetrical spinnakers, and I just completed the manufacture and installation of a masthead crane. I haven't flown a spinnaker yet, but from what I've read you can fly a symetrical spinnaker without a pole as long as the tack of the sail is held at the centerline and forward of the forestay. I have a bridle that will go around my furled headsail to keep the adjustable tack centered.

A device called a "Tacker" by ATN is billed as something to allow one to fly a regular spinnaker without a pole. Here's the company info...

<img src="http://www.atninc.com/media/tacker2.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://www.atninc.com/media/p2aux.jpg" border=0>

The patented "Tacker" has been developed to control the tack of the cruising spinnaker (asymmetric) by fastening it over the furled headsail and it allows you to use your conventional (symmetric) spinnaker like an asymmetric spinnaker from beam reaching to broad reaching without the need of the spinnaker pole.

Here is the sequence: Attach the halyard to the spinnaker's head, the sheet to the spinnaker's clew, the downhaul to the spinnaker's tack where the TACKER has already been shackled, pass the TACKER around the furled headsail, clip the snap shackle onto the spinnaler's tack and hoist away. Trim the sheet and the downhaul and you are sailing. The downhaul, in most cases, can be replaced by a rope pennant always on the spinnaker's tack, making the operation even easier.
Of course you can fly a spinnaker without a pole and without the TACKER, but bear in mind that a conventional spinnaker is designed to fly a couple of feet above the lifelines. Its foot (between the clew and the tack) should always be horizontal. Securing the spinnaker tack to the deck is not the best way to set the sail. It is too low and the spinnaker will chafe on the bow pulpit and lifelines. If you add a pennant or a downhaul, the spinnaker falls off to leeward and the pennant chafes on the pulpit and the sail looses its shape.

That's when the TACKER saves the day. It holds the tack, and the luff, of the spinnaker close to the centerline of the boat and it can be adjusted up and down with the downhaul for a perfect trim.

<img src="http://www.atninc.com/media/tackerinuse.jpg" border=0>

The NEW Tacker is now fitted with a snapshakle, which allows the operator to "blow the tack" of the spinnaker, making it even easier to control the sail.

Here's the link.

http://www.atninc.com/tacker.html

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 20:40:29

what's that ATN tacker cost? looks interesting.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

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jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 20:44:16

I try not to do this because I work for the site, but www.catalinaowners.com has a thread going on this topic right now. Hit the link: http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pview.tpl?SKU=2003129074901.1&forumabr=as&fno=61

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 21:28:20

No sir I don't beleve you can. The shape of what would become the luff and leach once it goes to the side of the boat is wrong. The spinnaker is designed to pull not push a boat. It develops its power by catching the air but does not eficently turn this force into propultion by changing its direstion as a Genoa or asymetical spinnaker does

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 22:41:41

Bill Holcomb posted this a week or two ago....

"BTW - For those of you all who are thinking about flying a symetrical spinnaker without a pole - this is very do'able. Use a 6' long line tied to one lower corner (this corner becomes the tack) and secure the other end of this line to the stem fitting. If you have a carabiner aboard, secure the tack corner to the forestay (a slip-knot loop in the tack line near the tack corner works great for this). Hoist away and you'll find that the sail works fine on beam to broad reaches." - Bill Holcomb C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 07:26:26

I once built a symmetrical chute for my C25 from a Sailrite kit, but it saw little use for years as I seldom had the crew to help with the pole and its attendant lines, etc. I finally experimented with flying it like a cruising chute; I bought a "sock", etc. Then it got some use. Worked fine. I even won a 25 mile downwind race with it, beating symmetricals with poles. Bill Sloane now owns it on "Suede Shoes" near Olympia, WA.

I don't recall the luff measurement, but it may have been around 30'. The foot was just over 18'. This was for a standard rig.

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 08:25:21

Yes its very possible. Not as easy to Gybe though. Although I suppose it could be.

Prior to getting a spin pole and twing lines installed, we flew our tri-radial spinaker this way:

Attach a 6 foot line with a hasp to the bow stem (there should be a extra hole there to do so. Then attach a shackle to the other end. For lack of a better term, this is your tack. Make sure you are outside the forestay and you are not fouled on the bow pulpit.

Get a 5/16th or a 3/8ths inch diameter line and put a shackle on one end. run this line all the way aft to a block on the rail (all the way aft!) The line is going to have to be fairly long, since it has to wrap all the way around the front of the boat when it is on the opposite gybe. (do the same for the other side of the boat.)

Hoist the sail using the spinaker halyard, depending on your foresail setup you might need to stop about 6 inches short so that it can clear any furling gear that might be in the way.

Head downwind, hoist and enjoy. You won't be able to run dead down very well, but until you get a real Asym or get a pole and tweaker line set-up in place, this is the next best thing.

One note, don't try and use a whisker pole on the spinaker - There is a reason the spin pole is a 2 inch plus diameter...

If you have any other questions, let me know -

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 10:01:11

Duane,

Thanks for the info and I have a couple of questions.

1. Where would a spinnaker pole topping lift attach on the mast?

2. I have a somewhat sturdy ForeSpar 2" whisker pole. Would it be strong enough for use as a spinnaker pole on a C25?

3. What, exactly, do the twing and tweaker lines do?

4. Last season, I purchased a used symetrical spinnaker and the material has the feel of a soft dress. The material in the barely used asymetrical sail I just bought is stiffer and almost feels like...like delicate paper(it even makes a crunching sound when stowing). Is this how it is supposed to feel??

Thanks.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 05/13/2003 10:13:33

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 10:25:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Thanks for the info and I have a couple of questions.
1. Where would a spinnaker pole topping lift attach on the mast?
2. I have a somewhat sturdy ForeSpar 2" whisker pole. Would it be strong enough for use as a spinnaker pole on a C25?
3. What, exactly, do the twing and tweaker lines do?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

1. I attached the Pole topping lift just above the spreaders and steaming light (about a foot above). We didn’t use a downhaul (there’s that word again….fore-guy) at first, but instead used a good bungee line.
2. Maybe? There is an heck of a lot of load on that pole going inboard against the eye ring. If your pole is extendable, I would guess not. 2 inch diameter should probably be enough. I believe ours is 2.5 inches. If your pole doesn’t have hooks on both ends (one of the kind that puts a spar through the clew) then definitely not.
3. Twing and Tweaker lines are synonymous. When the spinnaker is flying, the pole is attached to the guy. (Windward side of the boat.) In the old days, the sail would have a pair of lines attached to each clew. One would run all the way aft and act as the sheet; the other would go to a block on the rail at the widest beam and be the guy. Tweaker lines eliminate the need for both lines. You would attach a dinghy snatch block (not one of those 3 pound things, the dinghy block is about the weight of a regular light weight block) to the sheets. This doesn’t have to be a snatch block, however in really light air, many racers take the block off the sheet (not the guy) so as to not weight it down.

The block would be attached by line (called the tweaker or twing…6 feet or so) to a block on the rail and then go to a cleat, most likely on the deck. Some people make the block on the rail a small fiddle block with a cam to eliminate the extra holes needed to install a cleat on the deck.
What would occur when going downwind, then, is the Tweaker line would be pulled in and cleated on the windward side of the boat (pole side) and the sheet side would be let out. In effect, Giving maximum purchase abeam on the guy and allowing the sheet to pull from as far aft as possible.
If you know anyone who seriously races a J-24 or even a bigger boat like a shock 35 or a Tartan 10 I’d be willing to bet they have this set up and you can look at it first hand.

Pic below, redlines are twings or tweakers.

<img src="http://www.harken.com/cspec/image/5032.gif" border=0>

I rambled, so if you need any clarification or further questions answered, please let me know.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 11:11:58

i just orderd an asym chute from atlantic sail traders, it came off an old C25 and comes with a sock and lines (like new) all for $800.00
red white and blue. thanks anyway for all the advice.
btw, is that a good price???

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 12:08:36

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
i just orderd an asym chute from atlantic sail traders, it came off an old C25 and comes with a sock and lines (like new) all for $800.00
red white and blue. thanks anyway for all the advice.
btw, is that a good price???

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Looks to be a little high.. For $879 you could get a brand new one from Cruising direct...(snuffer and sail) Lines would be extra.

http://www.cruisingdirect.com/InStockCatalinaSails.htm

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 13:38:08

Ok Im taking a beating on this one but unless your willing to play with the sail alot or going a long way on one tac its more trouble than its worth.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 15:07:55

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Ok Im taking a beating on this one but unless your willing to play with the sail alot or going a long way on one tac its more trouble than its worth.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

As long as your not going Dead Downwind, its not that much trouble. Even with a regular set up with a Tri Radial someone has to go move the spin pole on a gybe. Yes, its more work than a large Jib, but flying a symetrical like an Asym really isn't that much more work.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2003 : 17:35:07

OK. But I still say your just playing.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 08:08:53

Maybe, but aren't we all?

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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