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have any of you done blue water sailing in a 25?

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/19/2003 : 12:22:24

i mean real passage making in the ocean. i know there are not blue ater boats but was wondering if any of you attempted this and if you reccommend it or not. expirience aside, i really want to know if the boat can handle it.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 13:20:57

I've been working hard to ready the boat for "green water" cruising. Next weekend I will be sailing 40 miles offshore Dana Point to Catalina Island. Later this summer I will make a 3 week circumnavigation of Catalina and I have been thinking of voyages to the offshore islands as well - San Clemente and perhaps a dash to Santa Barbara from the backside of Catalina. These islands will be as much as 50 miles offshore. This will be in settled summer weather only.

I know the boats have been sailed to the Bahamas, and a very impressive Great Circle cruise with a family of 4 (documented on this web page).

My boat was raced by the previous - previous owner in the Newport to Ensenada race (125 miles offshore).

A Catalina 27 (with extensive modifications including rigging and structural improvements) has been circumnavigated.

A Potter 19 has been sailed San Francisco to Hawaii - if they can do it so can we! Any takers?

Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 13:37:19

When we were down in the Bahamas a few years ago, we anchored right next to a guy with a C-25 right off of Hawks Bill Cay in the Abacos. He had a bunch of "Gerry cans" presumably filled with gas strapped to his deck.

I never did find out who that was, but he had to have done some blue water to get the boat there.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 14:04:53

I've never made any true blue water passages in my C-25, and have never heard of anyone doing it in a C-25. A friend has cruised the Bahamas in his C-25 several times with no problems, but he takes care to avoid really severe weather.

If a well-maintained C-25 was caught offshore in a storm, it could withstand severe conditions, if the skipper uses good sense. For example, if the skipper persists in beating to windward in bad conditions, the boat will suffer for it. If he heaves to, or reduces sail area and runs before the wind, the forces on the boat and crew will be much less.

But people don't realize the horror of being in a small boat in a storm at sea. In the 1979 Fastnet race, experienced ocean racing sailors panicked and abandoned structurally sound 40-60 foot racing boats, and took to life rafts and even life preservers. After the storm, the abandoned and drifting sailboats survived the storm even though they were unmanned. The sailors who abandoned them died from hypothermia. It really takes an extraordinary person and an extraordinary boat to take to the open seas in a small boat.

I think a C-25 could probably survive the run-of-the-mill storm at sea, but "probably" isn't good enough. When your life is at stake, you really don't want to be in a boat unless it is "reasonably certain" that it can survive the storm, and a C-25 doesn't meet that standard. There are plenty of boats that are up to the task, and some older ones are even affordable, so why would anyone want to try it in a boat that would be too risky?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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SailOnSailor
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 15:53:08

So many variables... so few lives left...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> With all sensible precautions taken, I would do the Catalina or Bahama trips but not much more. For example, here on Florida's left coast, I would do Cuba, but not Mexico, although many have in similar craft. As stated by others, the boat was just not designed with those uses in mind.

Dennis

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 16:34:55

Then there is the guy who sailed a 19 foot Potter from California to Hawaii.

His story was in "Small Craft Advisor" 2 issues ago.

If you follow "SCA" you'll find that lots of small boaters sail to some pretty remote places. Especially those with Potters.

I'm not advocating it, but they are out there.

Heck, I haven't even done the Bahamas trip, let alone Hawaii.

PW

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 19:54:01

I wouldn't go serious blue water unless I had a liferaft, all lines led aft, extra jerry tanks strapped on, the port side lazarette fastened shut, an extra bilge pump (electric?) a good single line reefing system and good roller furling. I'd probably replace my tiller which I suspect has some water in it (but isn't a concern for the Sunday afternoon sailing I do in the sound. If my tiller falls aprt here at home I can motor back to the slip.)
And for the price of all those mods, I think I'd sell the C25 and buy a boat designed for blue water. The sea is much stronger than me.
But for fairly calm weather sailing to Catalina Island or the close Bahamas, I think it'd be okay. I probably won't even do that. I'm pretty conservative.

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

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Libecchio
Deckhand

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10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 21:29:14

The saying is, "There's no substitute for experience." But as Mark Twain said, "Experience is not always the best teacher. A cat that has jumped on a hot stove will never do so again. But she will never jump on a cold stove either." I think the most accurate way to look at experience is that you can learn a lot from other people's experiences.
For me, that means reading a lot. I've recently been reading a lot about bad-weather sailing. A couple of good books are, "Handling Small Boats in Heavy Weather," by Frank Robb, "How to Cope with Storms," by Deitrich von Haeften, and of course Adlard Coles's book, the title of which I can't exactly recall, but which is considered the standard as far as bad-weather sailing goes. There are also excellent books by the Pardys and others. One of the best books in terms of writing and first-hand experience is John Rousmaniere's "Fastnet: Force Ten," which was reissued in 1999 and is in my humble opinion a better-written book than "The Perfect Storm." As for basic lesson of this book, it is that bigger boats fare better in storms than do small boats: In the Fastnet disaster, boats over 50 feet fared pretty well, while boats around 30 feet (the minimum allowed for that race) tended to do poorly, and this included very sea-built boats.
Beyond that, Nigel Calder has an excellent book about choosing a cruising sailboat. (Again, I can't remember the exact title, but it's easy to find.) By most of the criteria for a deep-water sailboat, the C-25 fares poorly. (Which doesn't make it a bad boat, it just wasn't designed for that kind of work.) The cockpit is too large for a boat that may get pooped (although a big cockpit is desired for the sailing most of us do; if the cockpit does flood the water is not kept out the cabin by a bridge deck. The companionway is too wide and the hatchboards are not well secured. (Again, a wide companionway is nice for us wide-beamed people in the ordinary course of events, those are the trade-offs that are made by designers.)
That doesn't even get into issues such as rigging, hull-to-deck joints, keel-to-hull fastenings, etc. The short answer is, sure, you can take a C-25 "blue water" sailing. But I sure as hell would not take my family on an ocean cruise in this boat.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 00:15:46

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Have any of you done blue water sailing in a 25?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Does this count for Blue Water Sailing?

Once I was in a stiff wind, heeled over pretty good when all of a sudden blue water started flowing down the port sidedeck and out the scupper. Turns out my heel angle combined with an over half full head holding tank, caused the blue deodorized effluent to pour out of the deck vent and down the rail. I was lucky that it was the leeward rail and not the windward.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 03:26:46

Having been nearly knocked down once in a Chesapeake squall, if I were making passage I'd want a boat built to cope with a knockdown. . . or even a roll. That being said. . .

Would I want to take a boat with a pop-top secured by two relatively lightweight toggles out for passage?

Would I want to take a boat with an outboard hanging off the transom out for passage?

Would I want to take a mast designed for (relatively) easy unstepping out for passage?

I don't think so. And those are only the most obvious reasons why my beloved C25 is not a blue water boat. It's a great boat for what it's designed for, which is not blue water. And Oysters and Swans and Hinkleys and their ilk aren't very good for gunkholing the Chesapeake, at which my boat excels. As my father taught me, "use the right tool for the job."

Brooke

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2003 : 13:33:36

our boats have a capsize ratio under 2. i think it's 1.99 doesn't that mean she can overcome a knockdown pretty easily

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2003 : 17:46:20

Believe me, Buzzard's Bay and Nantucket Sound (Mass. coast) stretch me more than enough. Figure a five knot tide running against a 25-knot breeze and you quickly have close-together six-foot waves that bang and slap my faithful "Wood Duck" around mercilessly. Do the Gulf Stream and those six-footers become twelve-footers. Not much wetted area, a fin keel, and worst of all, a pop top which will part company from the boat and send the C25 to the bottom in less than thirty seconds in a knockdown. Oh, and an auxiliary motor which won't even get me into Nantucket Harbor without real drama in a blow because it cavitates for five or six seconds at the crest of every wave.

Blue water? In a boat for which I paid four grand six seasons ago? I can't think of a 1981 vintage boat costing ten times that that would take blue water in stride.

If you're interested, try boat comparos at www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html



In answer to a question posted elswhere, Westerly 25, Dana 24, Island Packet 26, some of the smaller Bristols and Cape Dory's and Morgans, all are more seaworthy than a C25.

BUT (and it is a BIG BUT), they cost WAY more money, are dogs in light air, are cramped inside, cost more to maintain, and are simply designed for a different kind of sailing.

I have had "Wood Duck" out in 30-knot breezes, roiling seas and heavy tidal currents, mostly single-handed. I am a cautious sailor who likes a challenge. But I also sail for fun. Blue water in a C25 is about as close to fun (for me) as cutting off your own arm because a rock rolled on it out in the wilderness (no disrespect--I was amazed at the whole story).

Dave
Wood Duck #2616

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Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2003 : 21:30:42

I bought my 1980 Catalina 25 here in the US Virgin Isalnds. It could have been shipped here on a large transport boat as a lot of boats that move between here and the Med and the U.S. are. I just don't see spending that kind of money to ship a Cat 25. So I have to beleive somebody sailed it down here. You can pretty much island hop down here from Florida, but there are at least two passages that would include an overnight sail. The weather and the seas can get very nasty out there.
I'm sure people have gone off shore (blue water) sailing a Cat 25, but it would be way down on the list for me. Probably not even on the list.
Having said all of this. The Catalina 25 tr/fk fits the type of sailing I do. She is a great weekender, and can be fairly competitive in regattas. Not to mention the great support we get from this site and the realitive ease of getting parts and upgrades
THINK before you jump
Shawn

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triley
Captain

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USA
251 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2003 : 21:53:07

I agree with you Shawn. A few nights at sea is one thing. Somehting like Newport to Bermuda ( the east coast slide), but a serious cruise, no way. Maybe a Flicka, but not a c25.

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martinsokolowski
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2003 : 23:49:59

The features that make the Catalina 25 a great lake boat really work against it as an offshore cruiser. The "pop-top" configuration weakens the overall structure of the boat to sustain offshore conditions. The large cabin hatch and forward hatches are not strong enough to sustain breaking waves. (The anchor hatch is also flimsey). Of course these could be beefed up, but the pop-top still remains a weak point in the boat. Another weak point of the boat is the large cockpit, small drains and voluminous cockpit hatches would hold too much water. Remember, one cubic foot of water weighs 62.3 pounds!

The 25 is really a great lake boat, not an offshore cruiser. Look at a Pearson 26 as an alternative.

Martin Sokolowski
Plano, TX
martin.sokolowski@verizon.net
Catalina 25, hull #742

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folido
Deckhand

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Canada
11 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2003 : 07:39:55

I agree with the posts. Specially the last one. I sailed my cat25 sk pop top in the golf of StLawrence and the Exumas. I would not go out at sea if I were not sure of the weather. I would not go out at a distance more than 12 hours form a good hiding place. But I sure have a lot of satisfaction from the boat. Although It is a bit small to stack 4 months of supplies.
JGuy

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Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2003 : 10:55:52

My two cents on the bluewater topic:
Keep our Catalina 25's for their wonderful attributes for comfort, affordability and lake or coastal waters suitability.

For bluewater(s) ... two words come to mind.
BAREBOAT CHARTER.

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

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SailOnSailor
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 15:17:33

I found one more word on the subject... Here is an except from a Q & A on the "pocket cruiser" website. The general sense of the question was, of all the pocket/coastal cruisers the Q'er mentioned, which one would best handle blue water:

PC replied:

"... The reality is that, when coastal cruising, you can generally pick your weather and just about any boat handled by a knowledgeable crew will suffice. If your plans included an offshore passage, none of the above would be suitable..."

They were talking S2, Cape Dory, Paceship, etc.. I would think offshore in a C-25 would fit the same sensible parameters.

Dennis

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SEA DOG
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 11:44:18

I sailed SEADOG a fin keel, tall rig with a hardtop, to Bermuda from Norfolk in spring on 1986 (and back). No good stories not even the smallest boat there! However Girlfriend moved to Wis. after our adventure.

Seadog FK/TR 4232

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martinsokolowski
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 22:12:11

No discussion of blue water sailing in a small boat woud be complete without this list of famous small boat passages:

http://www.famoussmallboats.com/

None of the boats even approach 25 feet!

Martin Sokolowski
Plano, TX
martin.sokolowski@verizon.net
Catalina 25, hull #742

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