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backing out of the slip

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/19/2003 : 19:30:31

I seem to have a persistent problem in getting out of the slip. The narrow fairway is about 26 feet wide. Here is what I am doing with a motor on the port side.

(0) Raise main in slip with low winds under 5 knots generally blowing directly astern into the slip. Main sheeted very tightle amidships. genny furled.

(1) drop all lines and back out in reverse at idle speed.

(2) put tiller and motor hard over for a backward turn to port.

(3) boat doesn't turn much and I end up approaching the docked boats behind me about 1 slip over from where I started. Stern moved about 10 feet to port, due to the narrow fairway, bow is still nearly in the original slip.

(4) put tiller and motor hard over (in the opposite direction) for a hard forward turn to starboard at idle speed.

(5) boat turns about 80 degrees, and stern ends up nearly hitting the boat that is directly to port of my original slip (my boat is ending up turned 90 degrees to starboard but laying right alongside my docked neigbors). Bow nearly hitting the boat docked to my original starboard.

(6) Push off those boats with boat hooks.

(7) motor down the fairway for a nice day of sailing. Come in early before the winds get up due to the nerve wracking start.

Also, when I am returning later in the day, I always have the main sail furled and usually stronger 5 to 10 knots of wind blowing across the fairway and into my slip (it's a consistently downwind slip). I come down the fairway at dead idle and slip the boat out of gear so as to approach my slip at 1 knot or less. I am as far upwind in the fairway as possible without hitting the boats docked on that side. I am prepared to "crab" into the wind slightly (but never needed to). I make the starboard turn using tiller only with engine in neutral when my bow is equal to the start of my slip. The boat turns very sharply and I never have any problems turning in. I don't even hit anything! One second in forward to give her a good push in, and a blast in reverse when the bows in. Then I jump out and stop the boat's forward motion by hand.

Is the problem turning in light air with the main up? Backing to port with a port mounted engine? Putting the engine and tiller hard over when backing (with no speed on)? Should I do the backing in 2 stages (ie. back down to port, go forward and to starboard 5 feet, back down to port again, go forward, repeat until turned 90 degrees to port)?

Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 21:07:40

Do NOT put the main up. Back out nice and slow as far back as you can. turn the tiller and motor and put the engine in gear reverse. Take it easy practice and just go easy. Dont panic. Dont drink coffee in the AM before you go.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 22:32:23

I agree with Douglas, do NOT put the main up at the slip. Enough is going on in marinas without having to deal with the main.

I have a simlilar marina orientation as you, docked portside-to with a neighbor to starboard, and this is how I perform my slip ballet.

1. Release docklines and start reversing "straight" back.

2. When I'm halfway out of my slip, I put the engine in nuetral and turn the rudder tiller to starboard to turn the stern to port. If you start turing too soon or too quickly, the portside hull might hit your fingerdock(portside) or your bow might hit your starboard neighbor.

3. When I'm almost entirely backed out and about 45 degrees from the slip and my bow is clear of my starboard side neighbor, I put the engine into forward gear and aim it at the boats that were straight behind me when I started. This means that the rudder tiller is still turned to starboard while the outboard tiller is now turned to port. The reason for not turning the rudder is because you still have backward momentum and if you turn the rudder before coming to a stop, it will send the stern into the boats behind you. With the engine NOW pointed at the boats behind you, give it adequate thrust to push the stern away from the boats behind you and when the rearward momentum has stopped, slowly rotate both tillers to centerline as you make forward progress.

Try experimenting with this technique(using the two tillers separately, one to steer and one as the thruster) until you come down with a system that will work for you.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 05/19/2003 22:36:45

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luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 22:48:59

I agree, as well, raise the main when you are out of your docks and in the clear. I back my boat into my slip and have the system down pat, but that's not to say that after almost 5 years I don't screw it up once in a while :)

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2003 : 23:10:48

One more point... Do not put the tiller "hard over", especially when backing. It changes the rudder from a foil to a brake--called "stalling the rudder". The drag will turn you a little, but when you get past 45 degrees, it goes from steering to just dragging.

I have to make some tight turns for our slip, and generally am turning to starboard while backing in, which is hindered by the "prop walk" in reverse. I use alternate forward and and reverse thrusts, turning the motor in alternate directions, to pivot the boat as it coasts in. Between thrusts, I idle down and coast so the rudder can do its thing and the prop-walk doesn't work against me.

And as others said, keep the main out of it.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 07:37:19

One last thing that may help, after you get the boat moving backward and are about 3/4 of the way out of the slip, throw the engine into Neutral. At this point use your momentum to carry you back. Once your clear, start turning the boat, just like you would backing a car out of a driveway.

Once you are back as far as possible, center the tiller and put the engine in forward. Don't start turning again until the boat itself has forward momentum.

I see a lot of guys throw the tiller over before they are moving forward, or worse yet still moving backward and they wind up going the wrong direction.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 10:27:17

You are discovering that the Catalina 25 er... "steers like a boat".

The bottom line is if you want to make the boat turn sharply, you must generate enough thrust to make it react, otherwise you'll 'snake' your way out of the slip as you describe.

Here's something to try... be sure to practice this technique AWAY from the Marina until you are confident.

Briefly GUN the motor to turn the boat while coordinating your motor and rudder movement. Keep the motor rev up to a short 'burst'.

Keeping the bursts of power short will make the boat react without gaining much headway. Try it out on the water somewhere... a good thing to master.

I learned the technique I am describing from commercial fishermen, who back 70' boats out of narrow marnia slips every day.

Dropping the sail is also a good idea. A good puff of wind can send you astray... ditto the advice on not turning the rudder too far.. you want it to 'carve' a turn through the water rather than plow. (that goes for sailing too)

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 10:42:31

Right on ClamBeach! I use that technique as well. Sailboats don't back up worth a crap, but can spin on a dime going forward. The only point where I would differ is that after drifting backwards out of the slip as far as you dare, put the engine in forward, push the tiller and engine hard over and give it the gas. The Cat 25 is too heavy to gain forward momentum very quickly and as already pointed out, the "hard over" will also deter your forward momementum. The net result is that your boat will spin on an axis that aproximates the location of your keel. Also recommend practicing this in open water.

John Matsche 1985 Cat-25 TR/FK

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 13:08:57

When I was younger I had an old truck with a reverse gear which didn't work. It wasn't really a big deal because I quickly learned to plan ahead each time I parked, while always having a backup plan in case someone blocked me in. Today I wouldn't think of driving a car without a reverse gear, but old habits seem to linger...

The tilt mechanism on my older outboard has always been a bit touchy -- it would pop out of position after reving the motor too much in reverse. So I tend to avoid using reverse. When leaving the slip, I simply manually push the boat straight out, then gently guide the stern into the turn after about half way out, then finish the turn by pushing the bow out as I pull myself onto the bow from the end of the slip. By the time I walk from the bow to the stern, the boat is pointed directly down the row. Avoiding reverse when returning to the slip is handled by thoroughly knowing my coasting distance to a stop. Setting the anchor is about the only time which really requires reverse. I lean heavily on the engine, holding it in position with one hand, controling the throttle with the other and manuevering the tiller with an extended foot (picture the old game "Twister"). All sails are down during all these manuevers.

Well, the tilt mechanism on the outboard has been fixed. But I still prefer to leave and return to the slip without using reverse. I guess I'm sticking with the KISS principle. But setting the anchor is certainly much easier, but maybe not as much fun.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 13:52:10

A few things to add- Clam Beach is very correct about the short burst. I watched a guy in a brand new Beneteau 35+ try and "Parrallel Park" yesterday. It became a game of bumper pool after a while.

If you know of any stink potters with bow thrusters, its worth it to watch them dock. It will give you an idea of how a little bit of thrust at key times in the right direction will turn the boat on a dime.

Also - As Don Mentioned - Put the main up once your out on the water away from the marina.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 14:46:42

http://www.tomar.com/products/c3/600and650alarms.htm

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 15:09:38

Thank you, I will leave the main down and avoid putting the tiller hard over while backing. Try to make the backing turn by tiller with the motor in neutral. Let the boat drift to a stop while backing and get some forward motion before putting the tiller and motor over for the forward turn. If necessary, to increase turning rate, work the motor in forward and reverse, in short thrusts, turning the motor as necessary, to encourage pivoting around the keel.

The good thing is the Cat 25 moves very slowly and is easy to fend off.

Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 16:38:18

I agree with John Matsche.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> after drifting backwards out of the slip as far as you dare, put the engine in forward, push the tiller and engine hard over and give it the gas. The Cat 25 is too heavy to gain forward momentum very quickly and as already pointed out, the "hard over" will also deter your forward momementum. The net result is that your boat will spin on an axis that aproximates the location of your keel. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The rudder has to have water moving over its surface in order to make it work. When you are backing out of your slip, the boat isn’t moving very fast, and the rudder is almost useless in controlling the direction of the boat, so just center the rudder while you are backing out of the slip.

The outboard motor, however, produces thrust whenever the propeller is turning. The faster the propeller is turning, the more thrust it generates, even if the boat is moving slowly or stopped. The good thing about an outboard motor is that, unlike an inboard motor with a fixed-prop, you can turn it, so that you change the direction of the thrust.

When the bow is clear of the slip by a few feet, shift into forward gear, push both the tiller and the outboard motor hard over in the direction that you want to go, open the throttle and apply enough power to stop the boat from drifting backwards, and to kick the stern over to port. (When I say “hard over,” I mean push the tiller over until the end of it is touching the cockpit seatback. Don’t be shy about how much you open the throttle. I open the throttle on my Merc. 7.5 about one-fourth for a couple of seconds. If you don’t apply enough thrust with the engine, the stern won’t kick around enough to point the boat in the desired direction. The reason why you want to put the tiller hard over is because, when you apply the throttle, the stern of the boat will kick sideways. If the rudder is centered, it will resist that sideways movement of the stern. You want to point the rudder in the direction of the sideways movement.

As John said, the boat will rotate around its keel like a record on a turntable.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 16:59:20

This is all quite good advice, I think. I just want to point out that not all outboards are created equal. I am a fan of the heavy Yamaha 9.9, even though I race. One reason is that it has incredible thrust in forward, and REVERSE, which makes life happy in crowded, challenging conditions.

I would only like to add that IMHO, when folks talk about "bursts", I suggest that they mean in revs of the engine, not in speed particularly. Yes, one needs some way (weigh? hum.....) on for the rudder to help steer the boat, but the engine can do lots of steering with its tiller. My caution is to go as SLOWLY as you can to maintain steerage. I am always nervous when people fly into slips, expecting their engine to slow them down. BAD IDEA! Engines die, gears get missed, and poop happens. At least if my engine quits as I am coming in, my momentum is never enough to do much damage or send the boat up and over a finger slip. Please do not count on your iron genny to stop a fast moving boat in crowded conditions. Momentum and , yes, and way on, but be careful about going FAST...

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR (78' C25 with only one scratch....from a fast moving "gunned" 22' Pocket Rocket.....dang him!)

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John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2003 : 21:34:54

speaking of flying into the slip, I watched a boat load of novices try to take their new sailboat out. They had a number of guests on board and as they were trying to make the turn out of the lane with many on the bow they were loosing steerage and as they closed in on the sea wall everyone rushed to the bow to fend off taking the motor completly out of the water. I turned my head when I heard the motor rev up and saw them smash into the wall. you can't really get a good reverse with the prop out of the water.

John V. Nin Bimash II
77 C25 sk/sr #153

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n/a
deleted

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163 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2003 : 09:09:00

You can always use a forward spring line doubled around the piling or cleat at the end of the finger pier as a warp. Go astern until you put tension on the warp, then angle the outboard (in reverse) the way you want the stern to swing. Release one end of the warp and haul it in once the stern is swinging around the way you want it to go, center the rudder, put engine ahead, and steer your way out when you have headway.

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2003 : 21:37:38

Thanks Steve. It's that ability to turn our motors that make our diesal powered cousins jealous!

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2003 : 14:19:39

I like the idea of the forward spring line. I was thinking along similar lines.

If I doubled and ran a 50 foot line from the stern port cleat on the boat to the aft most cleat in the slip I could back out against the line.

Once tight, I could put the engine in forward with the motor over for a starboard turn. I could pull the line in by hand. This would have to move the stern back towards my original slip, move the bow out, and make it impossible to hit the boats behind me.

When the boat is turned I could then pull the doubled line in all the way and off we go.

There is a large area of public slips in our marina where I may go to practice some of these maneuvers. These docks are usually deserted and big enough for 40 foot boats.

Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2003 : 15:24:36

The only problem with using a spring line that I see is once you are headed in the right direction and release one end of the line, you will have the line trailing the boat in the water. Watch out you don't catch the prop and wrap the line as you coil it in. My backstay block line went overboard once and was caught in a flash on the prop.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> Felt like a fool all bent over the transome trying to clear the mess and then found the line all dinged up and had to replace it too.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

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jheard
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2003 : 16:20:45

The only thing I would add is that if you give the engine a burst of throttle at the beginning of the turn, then back off, the boat will turn much sharper. Do this a couple of times and you can turn a boat 90 degrees with practically no forward way. Once you are facing the correct direction, give slow steady throttle until up to speed.

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jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2003 : 19:54:16

I have the fin keel. My problem has been docking into the wind short handed. Most of my notes have already been mentioned. Still, the following notes are in a manual that I have on my boat that has been used for rental:

Once moving, keelboats coast but lack brakes. Be careful near docks, pilings, etc. The motor could die at any time. Whether inboard or outboard, the propeller turns the boat as well as pushes it, and it is inefficient in reverse. Move slowly near docks or other solid objects. Warm the motor to avoid stalling when shifting into gear. Use the motor tiller to help turn the boat when maneuvering. Consider pushing the boat away from the dock before engaging the engine and keep the boat securely tied to the dock until you are ready. As you move the boat backward to enter or leave a dock, the tiller moves away from the centerline.

Avoid having a crewmember leap aboard the boat as it moves away from the dock. Have someone fend off the boat as it moves. Pull up the fenders and stow mooring lines as soon as you are safely away from the dock.

When docking, prepare the mooring lines and fenders before necessary. Hang fenders on both sides. With sufficient fenders and crew, someone can hold a fender and move it wherever necessary. Adjust the fenders to the right height for the boat and the dock.

When approaching a dock under power, come in as slowly as possible. Once the dock is nearly made, put the boat in reverse at low RPM to stop forward motion. Once into the dock you could put it in forward again maintain position and attach a bowline.

If engine problems require sailing up to a dock, you may need to moor on the end of a dock somewhere other than the proper slip. If possible, come alongside in the upwind direction. Drop the sails before you near the dock while considering the action if you come up short.

Proper mooring involves the use of a spring line as well as bow and stern lines.

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martinsokolowski
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2003 : 22:05:08

I'll add my 2 cents:

Leave the mainsail down, but you can take the sailcover off and connect the main halyard to say some time when you are out in fresh air;

Bend the headsail onto the forestay, reave the sheets through the blocks back to the cabin;

Use a shockcord to secure the headsail to the bow pulpit so the wind doesn't take the sail.

Motor out easy and when you get away from the traffic lanes head into the wind to raise the main-

Then raise the headsail.

Martin Sokolowski
Plano, TX
martin.sokolowski@verizon.net
Catalina 25, hull #742

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2003 : 23:44:28

I agree with Clambeach, and some other posts. I live on a mooring and get to pracice slips only when out cruising. Often I am leaving a slip in my favorite marina in 20 knot cross winds. The C25 has a LOT of windage. I have found the following works for me:

1) Have the mainsail ready to raise, but leave two ties on it. Do NOT raise it.

2) Tie the tiller handle in the straight ahead position so you won't be tempted to try to steer with it. Use the motor handle for all steering.

3) Get a dock hand to release all docklines and hold you amidships until you're ready to leave. Be clear when it is time for him to let go.

4) Run the engine five minutes at least to warm it up (you do NOT want it to stall out).

5) Put the motor in reverse and back out quickly. As the bow clears the finger dock, gun the motor and push the motor handle over hard to spin the boat. Remember: the bow won't deviate from its chosen line, only the stern can swing. A stationary or near stationary boat cannot turn in any direction.

6) Drop the throttle, into neutral, use momentum to get her over, and once she is at forty-five degrees to the runway, put her into forward and add throttle, motor handle hard over the other way.

Here's why most skippers lose control of their boat during this maneuver:

1) Not enough throttle. In a dead calm with no current, you can do it gently. But if there's current flowing through the slips, or a strong breeze, you MUST BE DECISIVE, and use the power of the motor to generate way. A boat with no way WILL NOT STEER.

2) Going from forward to reverse too soon. Practice out away from other boats. My C25 will go from moving astern to moving forward in a matter of two or three feet with decisive use of the throttle. So you can back up closer to that other row of boats than you think.

3) Don't forget to drop down to idle before shifting gears...

Edited by - on

Dennis Pierce
1st Mate

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USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 09:23:17

I have a single slip with docks on either side. I back the boat in with no problems. This also allows me to quickly do a fresh water motor flush as the OB is easy to reach from the dock. If you can back out of a slip, you can certainly back in to one. Another plus is the ability to sail out of the slip.

Dennis Pierce
Gypsy Witch #1719

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SEA DOG
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 12:00:04

Leave the main down and back into your downwind slip that way tour bow is always to windard, the way sailboats should be.

Seadog FK/TR 4232

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