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Sailing a swing keel?

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tojohnso
Deckhand

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11 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/24/2003 : 21:52:08

I am a new Catalina 25 swing keel sailer and have a few questions. When does the swing keel need to be lowered? I was sailing in light wind the other day with it lowered about 3/4 of the way and the cable was making quite a hum. Is this to be expected? I installed a new bushing in the keel as well as a new pin and spacers so I do not get any clunking noise anyway.

My next question is asked to put my wife and 10 year old daughter at ease. What would it take to capsize this boat? I know that it would take conditions that would be much worse more than anything I would ever subject the boat to (I sail on the Chesapeake Bay), but my wife and daugter are very nervous when we go out.

Thanks, Tom

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 22:42:30

Hi Tom...

I'll speculate (not being a swinger) that lowering the keel all the way and slacking the cable will eliminate the hum.

Now, about the nervous crew--with which I have a little more experience... There's an emotional response to heeling that tends to overwhelm any intellectual appeals. I suggest that you get them involved a little in handling the boat--put each of them on the helm, and let them see that as the boat starts to heel a little, if they let go, it pops right back up. Let them trim the main, seeing that as they let it out, the boat eases up. That helps with the emotional response to heeling.

As for what you can tell them, one thing is that the further the boat heels, the more the 1500# of cast iron pulls it back up. ALso, the more it heels, the less the wind can push the sails, since they are angled further away from the wind. Thus, even in a pretty strong wind, the boat reaches an equilibrium where the wind can't heel it any further... And with the sails down, only a 10' breaking wave in a gale on the ocean has a chance of capsizing a C-25. You don't have those on the Chesapeake.

But the intellectual part generally doesn't solve the problem. The last solution is consideration: Don't go out under small craft warnings, sail with eased sheets, reef early, and when that doesn't take care of things, drop the sails. Show them that YOU don't intend to scare them. Then give them a little time, and as I said, a little time at the controls.

Enjoy your Cat!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 05/25/2003 19:28:28

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 23:42:43

About the only (reaonably forseeable) force that will capsize a beamy hull like a C25 is a breaking wave taken on the beam.

Research shows that it takes (roughly) a breaker about 1/3 the waterline length of the boat to produce a capsize. So if you stay out of 7 foot (or larger) breakers, you should be ok in a C25 (grins).

A violent wind gust against an over-canvassed boat will lay her on her rail, but not roll her without some assistance from wave action or adding the effect of having lots of water ship aboard through open hatches or vents.

To let your crew build confidence, deliberately under-canvas the boat... sail her reefed in all but the lightest conditions so she stays very upright. Maybe even under a reefed main alone.

You can also adjust your point of sail and trim the sails to maximize stability. As your crew builds experience and their comfort level increases, add more sail and harden the sheets.

Dave makes a good point about getting your family involved in managing the boat too. This is good for more than one reason... It's important to make sure your crew has some level (however minimal) of how to handle the boat in case of emergency.

At a bare minimum teach them how to dump the sails and place an emergency call on the radio. I'd think that your wife should also be able to lower/start the outboard and drive the boat under power. They should also understand very basic MOB procedures, how to throw the life ring & etc.

Your cable won't sing if you slack it... some folks do like the hum, though, it can be kind of a seat of the pants knotmeter. You will find that you will change the balance of the helm by fiddling with keel position...

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 08:20:58

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My next question is asked to put my wife and 10 year old daughter at ease. What would it take to capsize this boat? I know that it would take conditions that would be much worse more than anything I would ever subject the boat to (I sail on the Chesapeake Bay), but my wife and daugter are very nervous when we go out.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Tom,

Your wife and daughter may never acclimate to the boats heel, because some people can't get over it.

My family and I have been sailing for over 8 years, but my Admiral still, to this day, does not like to heel...AT ALL! As the boat gets past about 5 degrees she goes into a panic/anxiety attack and I must return the boat to zero for a little bit. For her, it is kind of like being afraid of heights(of which she is) or flying. This is not something people get used to, it is something they have to live with, and sometimes those around them must live with it too. I also have a powerboating brother-in-law who has spent his entire life on/in the water and he can't get used to heeling, so its not just the landlubbers.

Dave and, er...Clam(will you ever reveal your actual name?) gave some excellent advice on getting the crew involved and trying not to scare the hell out of them, because that only aggravates the situation. My wife only sails on good days(sunny, clear skies, smooth water, little wind,...etc) and we spend a lot of time at anchor, throwing the kids and their cousins/friends overboard for a swim. There are other things to do on a sailboat besides heel.

(PS - This is the main reason why I am, for the most part, a singlehanded sailor)

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 05/25/2003 08:22:19

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 10:47:30

Hi Tom, The Swing keel should be down all the time except when launching or recovery, or where you may be in a slip where there is not enough water for the full extension of the keel. The operative word here is "keel" as opposed to centerboard. A centerboard can be raised or lowered as to sailing conditions. the Center of Lateral Resistance CLR remains relatively constant with a centerboard whereas with the swing keel in the retracted position the CLR is quite a way aft. Also, weight is distributed aft which has an effect on hull speed. Here is an example. With the keel fully retracted I can barely make 4kts under full power with my Honda 9.9. Lowering the keel without making any changes in the motor the boat jumps up to 6.5 kts and can maintain 5.5 kts at half throttle.

As to heel, a boat with a keel will heel some but becomes stiffer as the righting moment moves further out of center. As the boat heels the lever (keel) becomes longer and longer gaining mechanical advantage. In other words it takes more and more force to tip the boat. It's not like a small unbalasted boat that will continue to tip until something is done, hiking out or un-powering of sail. If you can help your crew to understand that bit of physics thay may be more comfortable knowing that the boat is not going to "tip over" like a small craft.

John V. Nin Bimash II
77 C25 sk/sr #153

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 13:42:44

Tom: I sail a swinger out of Urbanna on the Rappahannock River. In the five years I've been sailing"Even Chance" on the Bay, I have put the rail in the water exactly once, when I had the 150 Genoa up in too much wind and a big gust blew us over. My wife was below and went crashing into the starboard settee. No injuries, but she was scared, and then mad. She's never been crazy about more than ten degrees of heel, but she gets used to it each time once she remembers that it's very very hard to knock the boat over. Experience will really help your family.

I put the keel down as soon as the water under the boat permits safely. It makes the boat stiffer (less tippy), and then you're all ready to go when you put the sails up. When you put the keel down, put it all the way down -- 27 - 30 cranks depending on your winch -- and then turn it a little more to slack the cable. You'll feel it in the crank when the keel is all the way down. What you heard is absolutely the tight cable humming, like a cello string.

As for whether to keep the keel up or down at the dock, this is a long-debated topic on this site. I have a shallow water slip that requires me to keep the keel up, so that settles the argument for me. The previous owner kept his up in a deep water slip off the York River. The C25 instruction books says to keep the keel up at dock to minimize cable corrosion. Other people think it should be kept down so if the cable fails, the keel won't slam down and break the keel trunk and sink the boat (as has apparently actually happened to a few). Mine has been up for eighteen years in the water year-round, and the cable was replaced for the first time two years ago. I figure when all else fails, follow the instructions.

If you're down this way, give me a shout.

Brooke

Edited by - brooke willson on 05/25/2003 13:48:24

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 14:54:52

This is all really good information. I would just suggest that I keep a small thermos bottle cork on my boat, with a nail imbedded part way into it. I take it out when I have novices aboard to illustrate heel and the power of a weighted keel. Turn the cork over on its side, or even part way over, in the water and let go; obviously, the cork pops straight up with the nail down. Sometimes this visual physics lesson helps to overcome the fears of gentle heeling.

I hope this works for some of you! Terrifying people is NOT the way to get them to come back!

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 09:39:34

Sailing a swing keel? 

Dump it for whatever you can get for it! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Yo, Don,...the question says "Sailing" a swing keel, not "Selling" a swing keel!

Oops!...Sorry,...my bad! <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 08:42:38

Don't worry about the hum - Most of us consider that to be a beutiful sound. Lower your keel all the way at all times while in the water unless depth dictates otherwise.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 10:49:44

Hi Tom,

As others have said already, the hum is a natural byproduct of the keel cable and water flowing past it. Nothing to worry about.

<My next question is asked to put my wife and 10 year old daughter at ease. > Using logic and good reason may not get the job done. Kind of like being in California during an earthquake. The locals said, "Oh, that one wasn't so bad." But, I was scared "spitless" since I'd never experienced any kind of earthquake before. My friends logical explanation and off-hand disregard for the situation did not help my racing heart.

What might work though for your wife and daughter might be to enroll them in an all woman sailing school. Something like "Womenship" or "Women for Sail" programs. These schools are IMO terrific. They are taught exclusively by women for women. And, typically range from one-day programs to week-long cruises. I know several women who have taken these classes. Every one says it helped her self confidence and skill level aboard their own boat immensely.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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