Association Forum - Spreader bracket compression tubes

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Spreader bracket compression tubes

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

dgabel
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
75 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/25/2003 : 12:03:31

I have the spreader braket kit from CD, and I can figure out everything but the compression tubes.

The smaller tube, the one that the lower bolt goes through, is easy. What about the larger tube? The diagrams show it going inside the mast just where the spreaders come in. But there's no bolt that goes through, and there's no space set aside to mount it. One diagram shows the sheet-metal screws at that location, and, presumably, that means you can hang the larger tube on those screws. That also means drilling a hole in the mast at those locations.

Does that sound right?

Further, I'd like to mount a light on the spreader. That seems to mean I have to drill a hole in the larger tube, and then a second hole in the mast to get the wire (feed and ground) out to the spreader light. I'd rather not do that if there's a simpler way.

Any ideas? Thanks,

Dave Gabel
Walkure
1979 tall rig, fin keel
Sail 1484

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 01:36:37

Hi Dave,

I just completed this project about three weeks ago. I'll do my best to help, but, as you'll see below, this is a mess.

First of all, my mast didn't have any compression tubes in it before I installed the new brackets ... I have NO idea why not ... I have one of the first C-25s built, but it still should have had one tube ... <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Anyway, you mentioned that you've got one tube in place ... the lower one. I hate to say it, but I'm not sure you're going to be able to get another compression tube past the one you've "held captive" ... especially that big tube they supply in the kit.

Second ... I just found the "instructions" that CD sent me with their kit ... it is nothing more than a parts diagram from a C-27 (that's right, a C-27), and there are NO written instructions with it. I am embarrassed to admit it, but now that I look closely at this diagram, you are absolutely right ... they show the large tube between the two spreaders with nothing holding it in place. I never even noticed that! <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> I had it in my mind from the get-go that the compression tubes were meant to be installed with the bolts going through them, and that's how I installed them. In fact, I added a third compression tube so that I'd have one for each of the three bolts that attach the spreader brackets.

Getting the compression tubes in place is a real trick. I bought a couple 10-foot lengths of 1/2 inch PVC pipe and taped them together to use as a rod to push the compression posts up the inside of the mast. The brackets are about 14'6" up the mast for a standard rig ... 'don't know about your tall rig. I used that blue painter's masking tape to tape the compression tube to the end because I figured I would be able to break the tape and pull the PVC pipe out of the mast once I got the compression tube in place. Whatever you do, be sure to use lots of tape ... if you get the compression tube stuck on the way up, you might break the tape trying to dislodge it, and then the compression tube will be stuck in the middle of the mast where you won't be able to do anything about it.

I would suggest you measure the distance from the bottom of the mast to the spreader bracket bolt holes, and mark that on the PVC pipe ... when you reach your mark you'll know that you're getting close to having the compression tube in the right place up the mast. After you get it close, you've got to make small adjustments until you can finally see the compression tube lining up with the bolt hole ... then slip something in it to "capture" it before it moves away from the hole (I used a phillips screwdriver). Believe it or not, I did this by myself ... if you've got someone to help move the PVC pipe, it will go much quicker. Once you've got the tube held in place, twist the pipe to break the masking tape and you'll be able to remove the pipe from the mast.

As I already mentioned, I installed three compression tubes ... one for each bolt. I wasn't able to use the big tube that CD supplied ... its larger diameter made it MUCH harder to poke up the mast. I used the smaller one from their kit, and I made two more from some scrap aluminum tubing that I had lying around (I think it was about 1/2 inch diameter). Since you are probably going to have a little trouble getting a compression tube past the lower one that you've already got in place, I wouldn't even consider using that big tube they supply ... it'll just get stuck somewhere.

I'm over the limit ... see next post ...

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - buzz maring on 05/26/2003 01:45:36

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 01:38:07

... continued ...

Speaking of getting stuck ... the diagram I've got doesn't show any sheet metal screws, and there aren't any associated with the spreader brackets. There are some screws that protrude into the mast at other locations ... that depends on what you've got attached to your mast (cleats and other hardware). Keep your fingers crossed that a PO didn't install something on the mast with really long screws ... if so, you're likely to get hung up on them. If that's the case, you might have to temporarily remove the hardware until you can get the compression tubes installed.

I've been working on this post for well over an hour, and it still doesn't sound quite right. Nevertheless, I am so brain dead tired I just can't write any more. I hope what I've written makes some sense, and I hope it will be helpful. As bad as I might have made it sound, it isn't all that bad ... there are just some potential pitfalls that I hope you can avoid.

Please let me know if you've got any questions, and good luck!

BTW, I can't help you on the spreader light project, so I'm hoping someone else can give you some ideas. If it were me, I wouldn't even consider putting lights on the spreaders ... I'd simply mount one on the mast somewhere below the steaming light.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 08:46:21

Dave and Buzz,

I haven't done this upgrade since North Star came with the SS brackets, but looking in the CD handbook it appears that a screw is used to hold the large compression tube in the vicinity of the spreader. If you look at the illustration(bottom) on the right you can see a screw in the center of the bracket and in the parts picture(top) it shows two screws(at the bottom of the picture).

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da02b3127cce96933a922f1a0000001610" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da02b3127cce9693e5fceeb30000001610" border=0>

After looking at this picture I was thinking...I'm NOT recommending this,...let me say that again,...I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS,...but it looks like the large compression tube doesn't do a whole lot and can be left out.

Did I say I'm NOT recommending this,...let me say that again,...I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS!

Firstly, the compression tubes are there to prevent the mast from compressing together. The smaller tubes obviously keep the spreader bracket installer from collapsing the mast while tightening the nuts and bolts, but the larger tube appears to do nothing.

If we look at the loads developed under sail, the windward upper shroud tightens and compresses on the spreader arm which in turn puts the load on the spreader bracket. This load on the windward bracket is distributed to the windward lower shrouds and then down to the deck.

I don't see the forces being transferred to the other side of the mast that could result in the mast collapsing. Does anyone see that?

Let's, for the sake of argument, say that there were forces under sail that could compress the mast together at the spreader brackets and that we left out the large compression tube. Under sail again, the windward shroud loads the spreader arm, which loads the bracket. This load couldn't possibly cause the mast to compress at the center between the smaller compression tubes, because it would first have to compress and/or bend the stainless steel spreader bracket. And the forces needed to bend the stainless steel plate would have to be quite large to do this, and actually the flimsy aluminum spreader arm would probably collapse into a pretzel before the SS bracket bent into the mast.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 05/26/2003 08:53:04

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 10:33:39

Dave and Buzz,

I haven't done this upgrade since North Star came with the SS brackets, but looking in the CD handbook it appears that a screw is used to hold the large compression tube in the vicinity of the spreader. - Don


Don ... I think you're right about the large compression tube. I didn't even know there was an illustration in the CD handbook ... now I know where Dave saw the screws. BTW, the kit CD sent me didn't have any screws in it (it was also missing two cotter pins, AND the bolts and compression tubes were too long ... I had to wait for them to send me shorter bolts, and they told me to cut the tubes shorter myself).

I don't remember seeing holes in the mast at the location of the spreaders. If there are no holes there, I don't see ANY WAY you can tell when the compression tube is in the right place ... you'd just have to position it somewhere between the upper two bolts and the lower one, drill holes for the screws, install the screws, and hope you've got everything lined up so the tube stays in place. On top of that, that big compression tube is too big around to force up the mast without getting it stuck.

Don, I agree with your assessment of the loads. Also, my mast lasted 26 years with NO compression tubes AND aluminum spreader brackets. Now that I've got SS brackets and THREE compression tubes, I've got to be better off than I was before.

Catalina Direct gets a big fat ZERO from me on this kit, their instructions (or lack thereof), and the crappy service I got from them. When I called to tell them the bolts and tubes were too long, they insisted over and over that the parts for the C-25 were the same as the C-27 ... anyone can see that the masts are different sizes, even if the spreader brackets are interchangeable. They are still sending out kits with bolts & tubes that are too big as evidenced by a recent thread on the subject. I have spent a TON of money at CD over the past two years ... I don't appreciate this kind of treatment in the least.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

dgabel
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
75 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 10:40:00

First of all, thanks Buzz and Don for your answers to my plaintive query.

Buzz, I read your earlier post, but didn’t get that you had used three compression tubes. To my mind, that makes more sense than using that one large one, and putting sheet-metal screws into the mast to hang the big one inside.

I agree that trying to get the large tube past the small one will be near impossible. I thought that I could take the masthead truck off, because the spreader is at 15 feet, exactly half way for a tall rig. But the bolts that hold the truck on are frozen tight. I sprayed on a bunch of WD-40 yesterday, and hope that will unfreeze them. Perhaps when the rain stops later this week…

Now to the forces. Don, the tension force in the windward stay will be opposed by a compression force in the mast and a compression force in the spreader. The compression in the spreader has to be opposed by the force in the bracket, and by a force exerted by the mast wall. A compression tube will allow some of that force in the mast wall to be coupled to the leeward mast wall, which will help in keeping the mast from collapsing. But it does seem to me that the 1/8-in. or so stainless plate does a lot of reinforcing of that mast wall, so that I think you’re right – something else will probably fail before the mast collapses with these things on, even with the large compression tube not in place.

I think that I will probably go with only the smaller tube at the lower bolt position. I’ll snug the upper two bolts, but not really torque them up, and with the stiffening of the bracket, that should be OK. Next fall, when the boat comes back in from the water, I’ll see if I can get the truck off, and them give my one remaining small tube a shot from the top of the mast.

Thanks again for your replies. They really helped.

Dave Gabel
1979 tall rig, fin keel
Hull 1484

Walkure

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 14:09:22

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc10b3127cce9368cf030d260000001610" border=0>

Hey Don this is a picture of the stainless steel spreader braket being bent as so nicely captured by my wife's picture of the two of us forcing the mast into place. (lesson learned: stop and problem solve instead of forcing it into place) The problem was the slack in the upper shroud being held in place by the seizing wire. Now, I always try to remember to check to make sure all the slack is out of the upper shrouds before raising the mast. Nothing else bent, not even the aluminum spreaders.

When I replaced the spreader bracket on my tall rig prvious to this incident I couldn't get the larger compression up the mast and like you figured it had made it this long and so why bother. (I stick by that) The smaller compression tube also was to long to fit between the sides of the mast but was the exact width of the mast. My deduction was that it was meant to keep the installer from over tightening the bolt. I drilled the smaller hole just enough larger to accomodate the compression tube and bolt and installed. The compression tube is just flush with the outside of the mast. When the spreader bracket began to bend downward it appears to me that nearly all the force was directed onto the lower mounting bolt and compression tube and not the mast.

Ray Clift
Buzz 1361 tr/sk
Oregon

Edited by - on

steephen
Navigator

Members Avatar

100 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 16:21:01

Ray, Dave, Buzz, Don:

I went to install a second spreader light (I like the symmetry) and rewire my mast, and I don't believe my 1980 has a large spreader tube. I ended up installing the second spreader light by drilling a small hole in line with the existing hole for the original spreader light (the mast itself shows through the hollow aluminum spreader bracket casting), and snaking the wires through. Still have the original aluminum brackets, but since there's no bolt hole in the second one, I doubt there was ever a tube in there.

Stephen Z.

Edited by - on

steephen
Navigator

Members Avatar

100 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 16:23:44

A correction: The spreader brackets have holes in them, but the mast in that area behind the holes didn't have a hole corresponding to a tube bolt.

SZ

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 19:41:05

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Hey Don this is a picture of the stainless steel spreader braket being bent as so nicely captured by my wife's picture of the two of us forcing the mast into place. (lesson learned: stop and problem solve instead of forcing it into place) <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Ray,

It's bad enough that you bent the bracket while raising the mast, and even worse that there were witnesses, but to be caught on film while doing it has got to be the absolute worst. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

MikeM
1st Mate

Members Avatar

72 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 11:39:40

I just did the same project and installed the larger tube by using one of the top bolts. I did not want to drill another hole for the screw to hold the tub in place. I was also dissappointed in Catalina Direct on sending me a kit for a C27 with longer bolts and tubes.

One thing I did do was double up the triangle flanges that attach to the bracket. In the new system they are part of the overall bracket.In the old system (C25 1979) they came seperate. When confronted with a longer bolt I simply used the older traingle flanges as a washer, all the holes (3) line up and I now have a connection with double the strength.

Mike M
Marblehead, MA
C25 #1212

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.