Association Forum - Bottom Job: good news and bad news

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Bottom Job: good news and bad news

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

luckystar
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
236 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/27/2003 : 14:41:34

the good news first! I came in 2nd place in the regatta we had this weekend with my yacht club! This is the first time since I've owned her that I raced her. First place was the club champ and thanks to phrf ratings I was only 39 seconds from winning 1st place. This has put the fear of God in them now! Can't wait to race more. I hooked up the knot meter and with the light wind of the day (all the other boats are 30 and 35 footers), I averaged around 4 knots with a max of 5.5 knots! The knot meter really helps me trim. So the good news on the bottom job is the bottom is slick, the keel faired and the new meter transducers really made the difference!

Now for the bad news: the bottom paint is bubbling up in several areas all over the bottom and rudder. There's about three or four spots approx. 2 or 3 inches in dia. that have come off completely and you can see the white gelcoat underneath.

After all that hard work, and following the instructions, doing everything I was supposed to do, repairing blisters, sanding 80 grit, acetoning the hull, putting 4 coats on the bottom and about 6 or 7 coats on leading edges, this happens and I don't know why! Any ideas?

I was a little supspect that maybe the paint was too thin as I only used a gallon to do all the above coats, even in the swing keel trunk.

It was a copolymer paint with biocide made by a company called Aquagard. A friend at the lake is the distributor for them here and used it on his boat about 2 years ago before they added the biocide and has not had a single problem. When I brought this to his attention, he seemed concerned at first, but then resigned to it being my problem because he claims that the bottom must've had residual moisture in it. That I should have left the boat out longer to dry and used a moisture meter. Now most folks at the lake think this is BS. What do you think?

I thought that maybe the stuff I used to repair and fair blisters was the culprit, but the most extensive repairs were on the bow and it's not even bubbling up there at all. Under the pads only got two coats and there is no problem there either. The rudder was prepped the best of all with zero bottom paint on it, sanded, no blisters or cracks and a total of 7 coats and it's the first place that I noticed the little "air bumps" in the paint. When I went swimming and touched them, you can push them in and flat but I fear that in time they will all be bare spots. UGH!!!!!

I'm talking to my attorney in case there is some neglicence from the paint manufacturer and need to figure out why this happened before I go down that route. If i did something wrong, I want to know what so I can fix it. Thanks!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 15:02:44

Yikes! This can't be a good thing! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Is the epoxy barrier coat coming off as well as the antifouling paint?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

luckystar
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 16:38:11

No barrier coat on the boat to come off, it's just the copolymer ablative paint that's coming off. What's done is done, but my main concern is how will it take the repainting? Will I have to strip the hull?

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 17:33:34

Great job in the race! Sorry about the bottom problem.

If you repaired blisters, the application of a barrier coat is strongly recommended before applying the bottom paint. (I doubt that caused the bubbling paint, but the barrier coat would have protected the blister repairs.) Without seeing or knowing more, it's hard to say what caused the bubbling paint. Like the others, I don't buy the company's explanation about moisture in the hull. Long distance cruisers have been known to careen their boats, let the tide run out, and then scrub and paint their bottoms before the tide returns, although this might be some sophisticated paint that can't be applied that way.

Are the bubbles occuring at the places where you repaired blisters? If so, it's possible that you used the wrong stuff to repair the blisters, or that the repairs weren't fully cured when you put the boat in the water. When I do fiberglass repairs to the bottom or keel, I always let them cure for 10 days before I splash the boat. The manufacturers often say you can splash within a couple of days, but I have had fiberglass repairs go soft and form bubbles if I didn't let them cure longer.

If I were you I would strip the paint, repair the blisters again if necessary, apply a barrier paint, and put Interlux or Trinidad bottom paint on it. Now that you only have a gallon of bottom paint to remove, it won't be nearly so difficult a job this time.

Most paint manufacturers limit their legal liability under their warranty to replacing the paint. They refuse to pay the costs of labor to strip it off and apply it again. The manufacturer of your paint should, at the very least, offer to give you another gallon of paint at no cost, but IMHO, you shouldn't put that c**p on your boat again, even if it's free.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 17:52:58

And you put the Aquagard 181 primer on first?

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

luckystar
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 18:06:28

Thanks Steve for your perspective. I believe that it could be so many factors that it may be futile to try to figure out who to blame. I'll probably wait until next season, strip the hull, barrier coat it, and repaint with BottomKote interlux brand paints. I should have barrier coated anyway and just planned to have the boat out longer.

John, I did not use the aquagard primer because the friend/rep for the paint told me I didn't have to. That may be my best point of contention for getting my refund.

P.S. just talked to my friend/rep and the company is standing by it's "too much moisture in the hull" excuse but is sending me another gallon of the paint instead of a refund. He tells me that I need to plan to have my boat out for a couple of months to dry out, check with moisture meter and then prep the flaking spots, repaint, then wait a week to splash. None of this sounds right, but it may just be the way this paint is and my lesson is learned. I should have used a proven product, but oh well. I'll pull her next year or so and deal with it then. After 10 years without a bottomjob, anything, even flaking paint, is better than it was!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

Edited by - luckystar on 05/27/2003 18:39:35

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 21:21:17

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...is sending me another gallon of the paint instead of a refund.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
On the realistic side (not in defense of the company), ablative bottom paints are not known to be great at sticking to things--in a way, they're actually designed not to, but instead to wear away like a layer of clay. Ablative paints do especially poorly on bare gelcoat. A barrier coat or primer is important before the first coat. It's critical to follow the instructions for the barrier coat/primer and the ablative paint--for example, some primers say to paint before the primer cures completely--sometimes before an hour goes by--to get the optimal bond. I got excellent results following those instructions once, and a year later found that primer to be off the market because "people reported problems"--they probably didn't read and follow the directions and let it dry for a day or so. So, a good product is now gone!

I'm not saying your experience is your fault or that the product is not sub-par, but I am saying not to expect too much from ablative paints. I like them, but they are a something of an oxymoron.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 11:01:01

Thanks for posting this discussion. I’m just finishing stripping and painting my bottom and keel with a paint that has been re-formulated since the last time I used it. I’m going to read the label carefully to make sure I don’t have the problem you encountered. If you bought a gallon of the paint without also buying the requisite primer, the dealer should have asked you if you knew that a primer was required. But it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback. If he’s giving you a gallon of paint, he’s probably doing as much as he is able to do for you.

Gotta go. I still have a couple of days of sanding and grinding ahead of me.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 11:10:37

I think the problem might have something to do with the fact that you say you got four coats on the bottom and more on leading edges. I just finished using ACT copolymer on Encore! (after the barrier coat). Including the swing keel, I am fortunate to get two full coats and a third on leading edges and waterline with a gallon of paint. I have painted her several times and this is how it always comes out. Did you thin it? You rolled it, I assume. Foam or nap roller?

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

luckystar
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 11:25:45

Gary, a fella at the lake had pointed that out that the paint may have been too thin. He said the same as you, that I should have only gotten about two coats out of a gallon and that it should have been pretty thick stuff. I showed him the last drops in the gallon and it's pretty thin stuff, thinner than house paint! I'm wondering if that "reformulation" with biocide didn't screw this paint up. Even though they are sending me another gallon, I will probably not use it and go with ACT Bottomkote. and no, I didn't thin it. and used a smooth surface nap roller as the instructions indicated.

I asked the dealer if I should use the primer and he said no that it wasn't required. When I pointed this out to him yesterday, he flipped the story around and said that he told me I should have used it. What a shyster! I'm ordering my paint next time from Boat US or Westmarine made by a company that I know like interlux or Petit, I recommend that you all do the same.

And Dave, you're right, bottom paints are a bit of an oxymoron. They are made to come off and that if why it's so very important to make sure you give them the best possible surface to adhere to. If you think you've sanded enough, sand some more. if you think it's clean enough to paint, clean it one more time. the rest is up to the paint, so keep your fingers crossed. I'm hoping that by the time I can pull her out next year, that the problems are localized and I can just sand down those areas and repaint.

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 13:57:09

Patrick,
I'm no expert. I was just reading the minute (as in, very small amount) info on the Aquagard website. It just says:

"AQUAGARD® may be used over previously painted fiberglass or wooden boats without the need of a primer, provided the surfaces are prepared properly (see label for instructions)."

"AQUAGARD®181 Solvent Based Primer is a unique primer formulated for use on fiberglass surfaces to improve adhesion (see label for instructions)."

http://www.aquagard-boatpaint.com/

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - John Mason on 05/28/2003 13:58:24

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 15:03:41

Good job on the race!!!
sorry to hear about your mishap... and thanks for sharing your experience with us.

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.