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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Knockdown Point

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jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/04/2003 : 19:06:47

I know this has been discussed previously, but after a fairly "lively" sail today on the Puget Sound I thought I might want some re-assurance. Are there any conditions that could knock over a fixed keel Cat 25 in my area? Generally seas when rough do not reach more than 4-5 feet (max) and wind might hit 20-30 knots total. I have not sailed for many years and never on a small boat and when we hit 7 knots under sail with the leeward rail getting wet my heart picked up pretty good.
Thanks as always for any input possible. If there were a set of numbers to keep in my head, ie. 20 foot seas with 20 knot winds, I think I could sail more peacefully next time!
P.S. I have 4 battens in the main, 2 reef points, (which I don't know yet how to use) and a standard headsail.

Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 19:49:38

Jeff,
Reef when you START to see white caps.
Learn how to reef. You need to reef as the wind tops 16 knots. Practice in fair weather so when the time comes you can reef with confidence. There is no reason to ever be knocked down. The C25 will only get knocked down when overpowered. Reefing will keep your feet under you. It’s a basic and necessary skill
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - on

Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 20:09:40

I don't know the #'s re: a knockdown in a C25. In my experience the keel and rudder will lose their grip on the water at a certain point of heel and the boat will round op into the wind. This is generally fairly harmless, but it can be scary, especially if sailing near other vessels. It is a sure sign to reef unless it is just an occasional gust. Definitely learn how to reef your main asap. And as suggested above, do it in calm conditions so when the weather goes to s--t you have confidence in your skills.
Be safe and enjoy.

Shawn
1980 C25 fk/tr #1960

Edited by - on

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 20:17:01

We were on the sound a couple days ago and running full sails in 17-20 knot winds. Every now and then I'd take the headsail in, but otherwise we kept her pretty flat. BTW- If you don't have furling up front get it. It's very cool to be able to get that beg geeny in and secure without leaving the cockpit.
The big "discussion" in our boat is what exactly is a white cap.

Doug - #1913 Noeta

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SailormanCGA72
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 20:28:32

Shortly after I bought CynPat, '82 TR WK conversion, my wife and I took it out in the aftermath of a minimal hurricane where the wind was still above 25kts and we were sailing in a reef protected area. There was almost no wave action because the barrier reef reduced the fetch. Given these ideal conditions we decided to see how close we could come to swamping the boat. I never got anywhere near a knockdown since the boat would alway head up when it heeled to a certain point. I don't remember the heel angle. I would wager that a knockdown would only be possible under high winds working in concert with wave action to push the hull over before it could round up.

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 22:00:10

If you are out in heavy winds before you learn how to reef,
you can spill wind from your main by easing the mainsheet.
It's not as good as a reef, but it works when the wind catches you by surprise.
(Some books refer to that as a "fisherman's reef".)
You can also drape the mainsheet over your wrist (of the tiller hand) so that the main sheet is "handy". Likewise, you can keep your jib sheet in the other hand so you can ease it too if you have a big gust come up.
I was in a similar situation (not yet having learned how to reef either), and I was both wanting to keep my weight on the windward side, yet also wanting to leave over to leeward to ease the jibsheet off the winch. I found it better to put my foot up on the gunwale so I could reach the leeward jibsheet winch to ease the sheet.
Then I noticed that I could see the gusts coming (by the increased disturbance on the water's surface) so I eased the jib sheet before the gust hit. (Likewise the main sheet).
I think it's better to reef and maintain more control.
You know what?....I need to practice my reefing in calm weather too.
I haven't done it yet.

Thinking of you, I'll do it next time I go out.

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 22:14:03

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If you are out in heavy winds before you learn how to reef,
you can spill wind from your main by easing the mainsheet.
....You can also drape the mainsheet over your wrist (of the tiller hand) so that the main sheet is "handy".
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
 That’s good advice I sail with the mainsheet draped over my knee at all times so I know where it is. The other thing I do in heavy air is to pinch or stay hard on the wind. If you fall off you will tend to be knocked down, stay close to the wind and head UP to luff in the gusts.
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 22:52:56

I think the most likely situation for taking a knockdown in a C25 is as the result of a broach... having a chute up and a little following sea action would probably help that process along. ;>)

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 00:22:20

Jeffj - I was racing one day in drifter conditions with a full main and a 155% up. The wind went to 35 knots in less than 3 seconds and we almost had a spreader in the water. We dumped both main and jib sheets and she came almost back on her feet! Then we dropped both sails...That was the day I watched 3 spinnakers disintegrate before my eyes!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 00:25:23

Hopefully Douglas, skipper of Triska can chime in as he sails in my waters, but I am hearing no problemo under most circumstances? Remember, no heroes here, too troublesome and we head in under power!
Thanks.

Jeff J.

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 01:08:34

Here is my take. If the wind is up over 15 I would not put the gen up. I reduced to a 120 jib and left the main up. When it got to 20 time to reef tie in #1. If everyone on the boat feels safe OK. If everyone does not agree tie in #2. Never never do anything onbaord that everyone isnt comfortable with. Tall rigs reef 5 kts of wind sooner.

Now with Triska in a 30 knt breez we are just starting to feel our sea legs. Its work and you have to pay attention but 30kts is OK. Triska is 5.5 tons and full keel she was made for the rough stuff and she has proven it to me at Point Willson in 12' seas and 50 kts of wind. Man I thought I was going to die. But thats another story. Have you ever surfed into a marina OH MY GOD.<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2ce02b3127cce910bf97aed3b0000001610" border=0><img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2ce02b3127cce910bf9c76cb60000001610" border=0>

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 10:13:32

"Triska"... Douglas, you sure have a lovely boat there. Is that a stainless steel shoe on the keel?

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 11:32:03

Just a few other thoughts that may be obvious when you've got the rail buried...have your lockers and companionway secured so water can't get below decks. If you have crew and it's getting hairy, discuss MOB situations so everyone is on the same page. Get into PFD's and tether up. I just replaced my horn cleats (for my 130 head sail) with cam cleats and love them. Much safer. I have fleece on board, in case someone does go over in cold conditions we can fend off hypothermia. Haven't tried heaving to in 20-30 knots yet...has anyone tried that in their C25? Fair winds. Todd Frye

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 15:18:48

Jeff,
There's a lot of things to consider. A knockdown is just when a gust hits and the boat's heel becomes extreme - usually a very temporary situation. If you do nothing, it may happen over and over. You can read the gust as it comes across the water and point up as it hits to minimize the effect. Or reef; as mentioned, practice it on calmer days. Or ease the main and headsail as it hits. I prefer the point up method - you gain distance to the mark/destination, unless the wind is consistently high, then reef and still point up in the gusts.

One thing to remember is excessive heel is not fast. Try to trim the sails and shift weight to maintain 10-15 degrees of heel, 20 at the most. Most boat hulls are designed to sail best in this range.

If you are talking about a roll over, that's a different animal and usually requires a combination of high winds and big, steep breaking waves. Those conditions can occur around the Sound, more in the northern end around the Strait where the waves come off the Pacific and have the distance to become very large. Look for conditions where the current and wind are opposed, then the waves can get steep. But even with those conditions, it would also require other factors, being broadside to the waves would be one.

I think I'd be more concerned with capsizing. The extreme conditions with hatches open and the possibility of flooding the compartments.

The best tool/technique you can have on the water is seamanship. Learn all maneouvers on calm days, get as good as you can at them, then when the s**t hits the fan you'll have the confidence and knowledge to get through it.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 20:03:16

Thanks to all who participated. I learned a lot and feel more prepared for larger gusts.

Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 21:10:38

Jeff:

What Doug describes... Just don't do that! He sailed up to Alaska, but he now has a blue water boat. (The C-25 simply is not that.)

Tune in NOAA, check the internet, work on your skills, and make your contingency plans to get to shelter. Motor-sailing from Mystic, CT to Mattituck, Long Island in our new-to-us C-25, we heard a storm warning on NOAA, ducked back across the Sound into the Connecticut River, and grabbed a mooring just as the wind jumped past 50 with firehose rain. Later on that delivery trip, we spent an extra night in Bridgeport, CT because of 4-5' square seas in 35-knot winds on the nose. Boy, did that dock feel good! Contingency plans and some good old-fashioned cowardice probably saved our marriage--if not our lives.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 21:17:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
OK Clam... The V-23 is sorta cute in a semi-classical way, but what's the point? Do they have a cool Web forum too? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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