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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing keel play

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steephen
Navigator

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100 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/04/2003 : 20:42:39

I have my C25 jacked way up on stands, with the cable end of the keel resting on the ground. I can jiggle the keel by hand almost an inch or more side to side. This means, I suppose, either the bronze pin or the keel hole is shot. Question is, how much play is normal, if any?
I want to lower the boat closer to the ground, then drop the keel via the threaded rod method (plus a house jack for added security) I've seen described in these pages. If the hole is worn oblong, how has anyone dealt with this? Drill it out and use a larger pin?
Finally, the trailing edge of the keel is rusted. Has anyone used zincs on the iron?

Stephen Z on "Little Wing"

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 21:27:45

I have a zinc anode on my swing keel, but can't say if it really helps. The keel is still badly rusted. I think the zinc anodes are mainly intended to protect bronze and aluminum engine and propeller hardware, not cast iron. If the keel hole has worn oval, I think you can backfill it with epoxy mixed with shredded glass fibers, then drill it out to the original size. I don't think you can make the hole and pin much bigger without affecting the strength of the pivot hanger brackets. If you wse the backfill and redrill method, you have to check every year or two as the epoxy will wear much more quickly than the original cast iron, and you will have to repeat the repair periodically. If the keel is really worn out, the seing-to-wing conversion might be the way to go.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 01:31:39

You can get a teflon bussing kit from Catalina Direct or even a new pin kit to resolve this problem its an easy fix.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 10:09:05

Regarding boring the keel hole out to a larger size.

I think any machine shop or buddy with a lathe could make a custom stainless or bronze pin with a larger diameter center section.

Probably cost a boat unit. If you're gonna bore the keel though, you might as well go all the way and have a stainless bushing put in.

Wrestling the 1500 lb keel to a machine shop to get it bored might be a bit of a hassle... and will likely cost a couple boat units. There are magnetic base portable drill presses that might do the job too.

I think Catalina's kit addresses the problem by basically putting washers on the sides of the keel ?

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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tojohnso
Deckhand

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11 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2003 : 11:04:38

I just finished up restoring my keel so I will let you know what I did. First I should mention that a perfect keel will have a little play in it, so it is not unusual to see the play you are talking about. I just bought my boat so I didn't know if the keel had any major performance problems, but when I removed it I could see that it had rubbed against the keel housing, so I thought it would be best to fix it. My keel pin needed replacement and the hole in the keel had egged out a little so I decided to put a bushing in the hole. To do this I drilled a 1-5/16" hole in the keel using a magnetic base drill. Cast iron is terrible stuff to drill, but if you step up in size and go slow you can get a nice hole. This method is much much cheaper than taking it to a machine shop. Just moving the keel to a shop and setting it up on the machine would cost a small fortune around my area. The keel does have one flat spot right next to and perpendicular to the keel hole so it is an ideal mag drill operation. I machined a stainless steel bushing about .020" smaller than the hole and epoxied it into the hole using .010" glass beads to set the bond line. The original plastic spacers between the keel and the keel hangers were to thin so I made new spacers out of Delrin to reduce the gap to around .050. That is the easy part, the hard part is moving the keel around and installing it back into the boat. I can borrow rigging equipment from work and I have a crane in my garage, but it was still a big job. I would not recommend tackling this job unless you have quite a bit of mechanical experience and access to the proper equipment. While the keel was out I sanblasted it and put a total of 10 coats of paint as well as fairing on it, so this required quite a bit of work moving the keel around. I also have a zinc on it. This must be done in the Cheaspeake bay. The keel weighs 1500 lb and has to be supported to stay up right, so use caution.

Tom

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steephen
Navigator

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100 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 19:51:47

Thanks for the info, folks. The yard I'm at won't let me work on her anyway, it turns out, so I'm just going to be careful this summer (hope for a July launch) and do it at another yard in the fall. I replaced the cable. A few people told me even with a little play the keel wouldn't simply drop off into the ocean, and I guess I'll trust that until the fall. I mean, what's the worst that can happen besides the keel breaking loose, yanking on the fresh cable, pulling the stairs clear through the bottom, and sinking the boat??!! If you see a waterspout over South Portland this summer, send help.
Question for the fall: which usually wears out, the hole in the keel or the pin? The hole seems to be about three inches in from the edge of the metal, so I doubt the keel is able to "wear through" and drop away with the pin still in place.
Stephen Z on "Little Wing"

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2003 : 15:00:47

Wow Tom 'tojohnso', good description and a great job! I did something similar to fix my hourglass shaped pivot hole. I used a bronze bushing with a 1-1/2" O.D. and metal reinforced epoxy. I used a wooden jig to establish bushing alignment during epoxy cure. I think I set my pivot clearances at about 0.030" radial and 0.04" to 0.05" axial. No keel thump since!

I also had my entire keel sandblasted. I then treated it with acids, coated with epoxy, rough faired, installed bronze shoe (for running aground), wrapped keel in fiberglass, faired some more, epoxy coated again, then ablative bottom paint. On subsequent haulout, it's really holding up well.

-- Leon Sisson

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markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2003 : 21:44:14

hey i am mid-haul out waiting for my keel to get sanblasted, rustlock, epoxy, and paint... you have the ferrari of swing keels <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

when i removed my keel there were already washers.. were these always there? Should i replace? the bronze piece looks like it's in good shape..

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

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steephen
Navigator

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100 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2003 : 16:41:30

Wet Pretzel:

I'm looking under my boat and there are three nylon-looking washers on either side of the keel. They look like spacers, but since I just bought the boat I don't know if the keel has ever been taken off. Keel work is waiting until the fall.

Stephen Z.

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tojohnso
Deckhand

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11 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2003 : 23:32:03

The plastic washers are there to fill in the gap between the keel and the keel mounts. They prevent the keel from moving around to much in the keel housing. I believe the manufacture recoments about a .030 inch gap between the keel, shims and keel mounts. I had .125 inch shims and had to increase the thickness to .188 inch to reduce the clearance to .030.

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song6652
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2003 : 23:21:50

While you all are re-doing your keels, look VERY closely at the Eye-bolt that your cable is attached to. Mine gave up the ghost by separating the eye from the bolt with nasty results. Luckily the loud crash and smash didn't sink the boat. After $600 of fiberglass work and $500 boatyard work (hauling; dropping, repairing, re-attaching the keel), the boat was ready to sail again. If I could figure out how to attach some pictures, I would. They are nasty.

Stephen
Risk Factor 3969

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2003 : 00:34:51

Stephen o/Risk Factor,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>While you all are re-doing your keels, look VERY closely at the Eye-bolt that your cable is attached to... separating the eye from the bolt...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>I'm really sorry to hear about your eye-bolt failure. That eye-bolt worries me too. The eye tab just looks thin. Catalina Yachts now sells an upgrade cable attachment kit that eliminates the old eye-bolt.

On my keel, I drilled and tapped the original hole as deep as my standard length 1/2-NC tap could reach. Then, using the upgraded attachment kit, I installed the longest 1/2-NC stainless steel allen head bolt I could, without running out of threads. I also slathered the bolt with as much polysulfide sealant as I could -- really made a mess. My intention was of course to protect the threads in the cast iron and discourage the bolt from backing out accidently, but also to exclude seawater from contacting as much of the surface of the stainless steel bolt as possible. I also added two pancake style sacrificial zincs to the keel near the cable attachment point.

So far, so good. It's been at least 4 years since I upgraded from the eye-bolt. I keep my boat in shallow salt water, and frequently bounce my partially retracted swing keel off things.

-- Leon Sisson

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2003 : 11:12:42

I just finished the upgrade to my keel cable anchor too. Due to the fact that the notch in the keel on my early model was smaller than the later keels, the retrofit entailed an hour of grinding and fitting work on the new attachment to get it in place.

I used a compound called "Never-Sieze" (graphite based) to help the bolt into the keel. Works pretty well at its intended purpose. With the locking mechanism in the new fitting, I'm not worried about the bolt backing out.

IMHO the orginal 'tang' bolt arrangement is amazingly puny for it's function. Nonetheless, it made it 25 years on my boat... the hole was getting egg shaped though... so out it went.

I guess the most common failure on the orginal is if the bolt gets cocked or twisted to one side the cable end binds on it, breaking the tang off or breaking the cable at the ferrule.

My pivot pin was quite 'solid' in the keel, any pivoting was happening in the bronze hanger assembly rather than the keel itself. They were slightly worn, but not excessively so.

When I pull the boat this Winter, the keel is going to get a more extensive overhaul... or maybe a wing is in the cards.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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