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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

I finally made it happen...

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Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/15/2003 : 10:56:50

I have read in several books that if the sails are trimmed properly, the boat will steer itself. Yesterday the tiller felt a little strange...almost like the rudder was no longer attached. I realized what was happening and let go of it, and the boat kept sailing straight ahead. It was pretty cool. My crew broke out the video camera and taped a few seconds of it until the wind shifted. I think I've had such difficulty in the past due to the strong current (2-4kts) in our old sailing grounds.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2003 : 13:03:35

It's always great to play and learn. I can remember some of those events myself. Learning finaly how to trim the sails just right and find the (((GROOVE))). The trick is to remember how you did it.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2003 : 13:11:20

In the Manual of Sail Trim by Stuart Walker, 100% sail efficency is only achieved a few seconds at a time.

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2003 : 21:01:54

Sorry, folks, but a neutral helm is not ideal from several points of view.

First, a slight amount of weather helm induces lift from the keel, which pushes the mast to windward giving you more power.

Second, a small amout of weather helm is simply safer. Whatever goes wrong (including you falling overboard), if you let go of the tiller, the boat finds its way up into the wind.

So, if you want to go slower upwind, set your rig for a neutral or lee helm. If you want to go faster, set the rig for 4-5 degrees of weather helm in 10-12 knots wind, so that if you let go of the tiller upwind, the boat luffs up in a few seconds.

Generally, if you have the rig set this way and trim your sails for a neutral helm, you'll be sailing slower. And while I'm not a racer, I got this from a professional racer and rigger.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 06/15/2003 21:30:33

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tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2003 : 02:02:16

Aw come on Mr. Bristle don't spoil the fun! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

It may not be the fastest or safest way to trim the sails but haven't you read accounts of sailors losing a rudder and sailing by trim alone. I always wanted to try is some day too. That and heaving to such that I can stay in one place or nearly so are two things I want to play around and have in my skill set- just in case.

Todd Hansen
Fior Gra'
San Luis Obispo, CA

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2003 : 12:02:35

I think weather helm has to do with rig tuning more than sail trim.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2003 : 23:49:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think weather helm has to do with rig tuning more than sail trim.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I think it has to do with everything that can affect the center of effort--the rake of the mast, the relative sizes of the main and headsail, the draft of the sails, and the relative trim of the two sails. At one extreme, most boats under jib alone will have lee helm. If you can achieve neutral helm, then you can probably make some adjustments to the relative trim of the sails to turn up or down (weather or lee helm).

Heel also affects the helm as the underwater hull form becomes asymetric--with the lee side forming a "wedge" that pushes the bow to windward. This becomes more noticable as the rudder begins to lose its efficiency due to (1) less of the blade being in the water, and (2) the blade not being vertical--therefore not creating strictly horizontal turning forces. As the boat heels and the hemsman corrects for weather helm, the rudder starts driving the bow down, as well as creating its own drag. That's another reason that sailing upright contributes to speed.

OK, Todd, are we having any fun yet? <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 06/17/2003 23:58:35

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2003 : 17:10:30

Good point, Dave.

I was thinking of what was set, as opposed to what was variable. All the sail trim, you can undo in a moment, but if the standing rig is set with neutral or lee helm, you can't quickly adjust that.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2003 : 23:05:58

For me a little weatherhelm gives a more accurate feel of the forces at play, and any changes. A puff, eyes closed, can be felt in the tiller if the slight force increases a little more....neutral helm is like a car without toe-in it wonders slightly instead of tracking.....but that's also somewhat a matter of personal preference.

The statement I cannot resist (sorry, I navigate for a living) biting into is:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I think I've had such difficulty in the past due to the strong current (2-4kts) in our old sailing grounds. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Current is the water moving over the ground. The boat does not know this. It affects where you end up, and how fast. It does not affect boat handling, ie. trim/boat speed/weatherhelm what have you in any way shape or form.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake:
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/chesapeake.jpg" border=0>

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2003 : 23:21:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Current is the water moving over the ground. The boat does not know this. It affects where you end up, and how fast. It does not affect boat handling, ie. trim/boat speed/weatherhelm what have you in any way shape or form.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Well, Oscar, as a navigator, (commericial aircraft, right?) you know that in a current, if you "point" the boat at a landmark and try to sail to it, you find yourself changing your course relative to the wind as you go along--possibly to the point that you end up pointing to high and are unable to make your landmark. That could be the kind of "difficulty" Tray was having. And that's where a GPS is a wonderful thing!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 06/18/2003 23:22:12

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2003 : 12:46:41

Dave, I understand what you saying, and I don't disagree. I just wanted to make sure Tray saw it that way too. IOW, sail the boat first, in relation to the wind, then figure out if it can get you where you want to go, change the plan if needed......You know what's even nicer than a GPS? Three of 'em....<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> ( on the plane not on Lady Kay)

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake:
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/chesapeake.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 06/19/2003 13:08:42

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