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racing rules changes

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/09/2003 : 13:29:57

Since Bryan Beamers report on the Nationals, and previous Nationals results, which offered that, the wing keels with the larger headsails faired better than the centerboard… I’ve felt that perhaps some thought ought to go into some rules changes.

The wing by design is capable of running more headsail than the centerboard. This gives advantage especially during light air. Other design differences cause the boats to be quite different… likely in fact more so than the difference in the C25 tall and regular which enjoy being run in separate classes. Water line is suggested to be 4-6 inches different reflecting considerably weight disparity.

My initial thought is for a class for each boat. Using time adjustment will in my opinion not adequately cover the spectrum of wind. Granting too low of an adjustment to the centerboard would leave the wing with an advantage in light air, but too high a number might give advantage to the centerboard in heavier air. This same thing is true for the C25 tall and regular rigs and hence part of the reason they have separate classes.

Personally, I’m a fan of one design racing. I’ve made my views on that public. I understand that giving time is a way to race when a class cannot be filled with three or more boats. However, I feel that fun is the name of the game, and that would be enhanced by a flatter playing field.

I’d also suggest that if either model exhibits enough support for three or more distinctive boats such as spinnaker, drifter, etc. that they be allowed to run a separate class. What I guess I’m saying is, that if four water ballast signed up for the Nationals and three of them had drifters, it would be nice if they could use them in light air… to avoid the frustrations of a very slow race. I know…its starting to get problematic now…

Lets hear it from everyone and see if there is something that seems that would be wise and if so, lets collectively offer some rules changes.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 14:08:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> My initial thought is for a class for each boat. Using time adjustment will in my opinion not adequately cover the spectrum of wind. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If the objective is to achieve perfect fairness and equality among the competitors, then you are absolutely right, but having a separate class for each boat is impractical. In the past, the C-250 hasn't had a designated class at the national regatta at all, because none showed up. If I went to all the effort to show up at the regatta, and was the only boat racing in my class, I would be reluctant to do it again. When I go to a regatta, I want to race someone, and not just sail around the course and claim my automatic, uncontested trophy. If I have to race against someone who has an edge on me, that just makes it a little more challenging. In all the national regattas in which I raced prior to this year, the competitors were allowed to fly any sail they wished, including spinnakers, without a handicap. The boats sailing without spinnakers had to either figure out how to beat the spinnaker boats, or hope the spinnaker boats beat themselves (which was more often the case). Using handicaps based on time doesn't make the competition perfectly fair and equal among all the competitors, but it makes it more fair. Racing uncontested in your class is no fun at all.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/09/2003 14:34:27

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 14:50:40

The problem I see, there has not been more that 4 c250's in the 6 years that the class has been racing. 1997-4, 1998-1, 1999-2, 2000-1. In 2001 no c250’s even showed up to the Nationals. In 97 and 03 are the only years the wb and the wk raced against each other. In 97 the 1st & 2nd place boats were wing keel/tall rigs and in the really light air conditions beat the 2-wb boats. 1999 both boats were water ballasts. In 2003 there were 2 wk and 1 wb. The wb came in 2nd with the wk 1st and 3rd.

The other problem with split classes. The earlier model years of the wing keel had the option of a tall rig and 150% headsail. This would be an advantage in light air and a disadvantage in heavy air.

IMHO before we make these kinds of changes we need to have a lot more c250 participation at the Nationals. But then again maybe making the change now would attract more boats to the regatta.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 16:52:04

Steve, current rules limit the headsail on a 250 to a 135. Above that can only be used if the boat was shipped with it…and documentation to that is required. The centerboard boat is not designed to use a 135 do to having very long spreaders. Further, there is a serious weight difference resulting in 4-6 inches of water line difference… and you know the drag results of that. So, the wing with more headsail and less drag in light to moderate air the wing is undoubtedly going to prevail against the centerboard.

In order for the centerboard to compete… a retrofit (very extensive) of the chain plates from the rub rail to the cabin top would be required. This would require major glass work to provide the chain plate anchors, shortening all shrouds and spreaders, purchase of additional transfer shrouds, etc.

In light air, it would also have to be sailed dry (no ballast) like a dinghy. Then it would be able to compete but possibly at the cost of some safety. This is not against the current rules. The wing and centerboard are as different or more so than the C25 tall and standard rig.

As Bryan points out…there have been c250s in other nationals. In ’97 with light air, the c250 wings beat the racing sail equipped C25s even with a 5 minute later start.

I agree completely that it would be disappointing to go to the Nationals and not have competitors. I also heard Mark Melchoir who had planned to go to the 2001 Nationals and lamented having to compete against larger headsails. He did not in the end go… and I don’t know that he ever gave the reason.

I’m guessing that roughly have of the c250s are wing and half centerboard. Unfortunately, there are all ready several variations including a very few tall rigs and a shipped with 150 headsails.

I threw the drifter concept into the discussion just to show the frustration at trying to get a water ballast to go off wind in very light air. You know that frustration, hence why you own a tall rig. My point was, is it more fair to consign three boats who are registered with a drifter, to wallow in light air or give the single boat a choice to upgrade prior to the Nationals, or compete in a class which he might be outranked if the air happens to be under six knots. If holding the current course… all water ballast boats are subject to the discrimination that would be felt by the single non-drifter equipped boat.

Another concern is that time adjustments gleaned from most locations are based on allowing 150 limit sails. Those times are unfair when applied to other sail restricting rules or inability of a design to fly more than a working sail.

I don’t have the answer to Bryan’s question about participation. We know now that roughly half of the c250s are in each configuration and that there are about 700 of them compared to 6000 C25s. So, there is 11 percent 250s to C25s. That would mean for equal representation, there should have been about 28 c25s… Yes, the C25 is harder to haul than a c250…but newer sailors also likely own the c250 and less involved in racing.

The easiest boat to haul is the centerboard 250 by a good margin… because it was specifically designed for that. This model might become the most represented in the Nationals for that reason. It seems now to be the more cruised of the two models for the same reason, because it’s easier to get to good cruising waters. What I’m saying is, lets not discourage the center boarders from coming by providing an uneven playing field.

Bryan may be right; because of numbers it may be premature to run separate classes. I certainly don’t have an argument against that. But for fairness… the sail restrictions should be modified. Drifters should be allowed, making the possibilities of equal sail possible in light air. Now, lets see…what would be the proper rail meat to run without ballast? I’m kidding! Mostly! Please, don’t anyone try this unless the air is really light.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 07/09/2003 20:45:29

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 17:47:43

Arlyn,

In your proposal would the wk's be able to run a drifter?
I don't know any wk boat other than myself that has a drifter. I'm sure there are some out there I just have not heard of them.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> We know now that roughly half of the c250s are in each configuration and that there are about 700 of them <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Maybe next Nationals we will get 2%(14) of 700 boats to participate with half being wk and half being wb then we could run 2 classes both with drifters.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 17:58:22

Bryan...yes, I'd like to see the rules changed to allow them for either c250. This would give you a more level field against a wing that produced a 150 certificate. IMHO, this would make headway towards more fair and interesting competition.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 20:16:42

Gentlemen, I've followed your thoughts with interest. I agree that the many configurations of the C250 pose a problem. I would like to suggest that we treat them the same as the C25 TR and SR - run a class for the WB and another for the WK. We may not get enough participation initially to have 2 effective fleets, but hopefully, as more C250's are sold this will improve. I also think that some time allowance should be made within each fleet depending upon which headsail is used.
I agree with Steve that to race in the Nationals as an uncontested boat would be miserable - perhaps if only one WB or WK turns up, he/she could be persuaded to run with the others, with an appropriate allowance. I think that we should "kick this around" some more and make some concrete decisions before next year's Nationals.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 11:28:14

When I feel strongly about something, the passion with which I express my opinions can sometimes be mistaken for an attack on those who hold different views. I have great respect, admiration and friendship for all the contributors to this discussion, and hope my remarks will not be misunderstood.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Steve, current rules limit the headsail on a 250 to a 135. Above that can only be used if the boat was shipped with it…and documentation to that is required. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

They're your (the C250 Owners') rules. Change them any way you see fit to create a reasonably fair racing scheme. I think that is an unwise rule that will discourage participation, and it should be changed anyway. If someone bought a huge headsail when he bought the boat new, how does that fact make it fair for him to use it against another owner who didn’t buy such a big headsail at the time, or against another owner who bought his boat used? The person who has the racing advantage is the person who had the foresight and the money to buy a big headsail, and not the person who is the best sailor. It is an unfair and unwise rule that was written to satisfy someone’s misguided notion of fairness. The rule was intended to be fair to the person who bought a big sail and who, in fairness to his opponents, really shouldn’t be allowed to use it in the national regatta, and it is grossly unfair to the person who just wants to play on a level playing field.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The centerboard boat is not designed to use a 135 do to having very long spreaders. Further, there is a serious weight difference resulting in 4-6 inches of water line difference… and you know the drag results of that. So, the wing with more headsail and less drag in light to moderate air the wing is undoubtedly going to prevail against the centerboard. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Okay, so give wing keel boats a time handicap against the others.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Using time adjustment will in my opinion not adequately cover the spectrum of wind. Granting too low of an adjustment to the centerboard would leave the wing with an advantage in light air, but too high a number might give advantage to the centerboard in heavier air. This same thing is true for the C25 tall and regular rigs and hence part of the reason they have separate classes.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The handicapping of yachts by using time adjustments is not a new and untested exercise. Time handicaps have been assigned to different classes of yachts for many years, in a successful effort to permit boats of all different designs to race against each other on a reasonably equal basis. With a handicapping system, boats with widely different designs can compete on a reasonably fair basis against each other. Daysailors can compete fairly against family cruisers, racer-cruisers, and racers of all different sizes. The purpose of a handicapping system is to take the inherent capability of the boat out of the equation, so that the outcome of the race depends largely on the skill of the skipper and crew.

Different time handicaps have been assigned to C-25 tall and standard rigs, and they compete against each other in handicap races all the time. For many years at our lake we even assigned different handicaps to tall and standard rig C-25s depending on the size of headsail they carried. They had to declare the size of their headsail before the start of each race. C-25s race in separate classes in the national regatta because a sufficient number of each type usually show up to justify two separate classes. That has never been true of C-250s. If the time comes that there are enough C-250s showing up to justify separate classes, then separate classes can be created. C-250 Class rules could even specify that, if at least two or three boats of a certain class do not register to race in any given year, then any boat(s) of that class that do(es) register will race on a handicap basis against all boats of the other class.

There are performance differences among the keel types of C-25s also, and if we broke all of them down into separate racing classes, to insure absolute, metaphysical "fairness" and "equality," we would not have enough participating boats of each keel type to justify all the classes.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> In order for the centerboard to compete… a retrofit (very extensive) of the chain plates from the rub rail to the cabin top would be required. This would require major glass work to provide the chain plate anchors, shortening all shrouds and spreaders, purchase of additional transfer shrouds, etc. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If time handicaps are established, based on the way the boats came out of the factory, nobody needs to modify their boats at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I’m guessing that roughly have of the c250s are wing and half centerboard. Unfortunately, there are all ready several variations including a very few tall rigs and a shipped with 150 headsails. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If time handicaps are established for all the variations, then all C-250s that show up, including all the different keel and rig configurations, will be able to race on a reasonably equal basis.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>However, I feel that fun is the name of the game, and that would be enhanced by a flatter playing field. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I agree, but how much fun would it be if you scheduled a football game, and only one team showed up? A flat playing field is meaningless if there aren't enough teams on the field to play a game. There is neither fun nor honor in "winning" a competition by default.

Even though there is not true, nationwide participation in our national regattas, every time that I have attended, the winner of each class has been an outstanding racing sailor who was worthy of the distinction. Establishing a system that permits someone to win his class by default, demeans the distinction and demeans the efforts of those who prevailed against competitors.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...is it more fair to consign three boats who are registered with a drifter, to wallow in light air or give the single boat a choice to upgrade prior to the Nationals, or compete in a class which he might be outranked if the air happens to be under six knots. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In this years nationals, C-25s weren't allowed to fly spinnakers at all, or any sail larger than 155%. You could say that we C-25s were required to "wallow" in light air with smaller sails than might have been permitted, even though some of the racers might have had spinnakers, drifters and other light air sails. What's wrong with limiting sail area or sail type to create a “level playing field?” It's done all the time. That's why we measure the racers' sails.

Devise a reasonably fair scheme that permits owners of all C-250 configurations to race on a reasonably equal basis. If you all get hung up on a search for absolute, metaphysical equality, you'll end up pleasing no one, because that is what everyone will expect, and when you can't deliver it, everyone will think (s)he's getting shafted. If you search for a scheme that gives everyone a reasonably fair chance to win, then that is what everyone will expect, and you will have a very good chance of finding such a scheme.

Establishing sail area limitations and handicaps based on time will provide a reasonably fair basis to race until there are enough participants to justify separate classes.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

azexploder
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Response Posted - 07/21/2003 : 16:42:33

I am breaking in a new crew for the fall series here in AZ and would like to see this thread continue. The PHRF fleet I will be racing in has c27's, c25's and couple of Oday 25's.

In 2004, if the regata is this side of the Miss, I can see getting out of the 110's in June/July for a week.

Since this is my second series of racing, here is what my limited knowlege of the ratings leads me to think.

I don't think a drifter can be considered a racing sail.

Standard Ratings (with local adjustments)
WK - 224
SK - 226
110% - +2
135% - np
155% - -2

That is about all the variations in hull and sail that I would consider. The 155 genoa would be a hinderance I would think from the other posts. I do have a 155% drifter, and I thought if I want to fly it in a race, I would have to run with the hot rod spin boats. I personally like to see the boats I am racing beyond the first mark so I think that is out.

There are several C250 in the Lake Pleasant storage yard and I have contacted several from the contacts page on this site to encourage their participation in the upcoming race season. SOme actualy where interested.

By the way - had #48 out for the second time - first time with some wind (and 107% temps). Very comfortable comparied to my old c22 and M26S.

Regards
Mike
bluebyu2 #48

Mike
C250 0048
Bluebyu2

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arlingva
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Response Posted - 07/27/2003 : 14:38:20

I have some strong comments on this issue, so in the interest of full disclosure I would like to make a few comments about myself. I am 41 years old and have been a competive sailboat racer since age 6. Until approximately 6 years ago, I had no desire to drift around some flat body of water in a high freeboard, low sail area bath tub. However, having now gained some maturity and perspective I now much prefer spending a beautiful evening aboard my Catalina 250 with my wife and two daughters to performing a horizon job on my closest competitor.

That said, I think we need to keep several things in mind. These are not "racing" boats. This class should not be run for the hyper competive. Let them go sail J-105's or Farr 40's. Let us have a class where we can go out in our factory equipped boats with those we love and have an friendly, competitive, and spirited race. Hopefully avoiding profanity, protest rooms, expensive sails and arguements about ratings.

Any Catalina 250 owner should be able to bring their factory equipped boat to the national regatta and compete (against someone). If we are going to make rules at this point concerning equipment it should be less rather than more. I shouldn't be required to buy a drifter/spinnaker/150 to be competitive. If I want that equipment for club racing or cruising - fine. Not at the nationals! When enough boats have been sold to justify a WB and WK class - fine. I wouldn't spilt the fleet until we had ten competitors at two successive nationals. Over time the tall rig 250s with the 150 genoas will fade into the sunset and when they become a very small minority we can either handicap them or make them fly 135s or 110s. Until then lets all have FUN <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>.

My bet is you could put this years national champion in any of the three boats that were competing and he would have won regardless. Lets worry more about gatting the maximum enjoyment from life and less about whether one model of our boat has a slight advantage or disadvantage in different conditions.

Random thoughts in an idle moment. Please pardon the ranting.

Bill

Bill Swanson
C250WK #614

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 12:11:43

I do agree we need to have more participation at the Nationals before we split into 2 classes and we should stick to the sails that are the factory sizes that were equipped with the boat at time of purchase. If someone wants to buy racing sails that meet the class rules I don't have a problem with that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My bet is you could put this years national champion in any of the three boats that were competing and he would have won regardless. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't agree with the above quote. The skipper and crew on the water ballast were experienced racers with the skipper racing in the S2 7.9 nationals in the past. Although the boat was his sisters and I don't think he had a lot of time sailing it but his racing knowledge was there. I personally don't feel I could sail the wb as I can the wk. The 2 boats are rigged totally different and sail totally different.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 13:40:10

Yesterday I crewed in two races on a WB 250 in strong winds. We used a 110% hank on jib and a single reef in the mainsail. Beating to windward, we had to play the mainsail constantly to keep her on her feet, but she really flew. When we turned back downwind, we shook out the reef and we mostly broad reached and occasionally ran to the finish line. Some of the gusts were so overpowering that I thought we might broach, although we didn't.

I haven't sailed on a wing keel 250, but I raced against Bryan at the nationals. I think the moderate wind at this year's nationals was ideally suited to Bryan's 250 with her 135% jib. My impression is that the WB sails very well, and if strong winds limit the wing keel boat to a 110% jib, the two will be pretty evenly matched. In lighter winds, however, the WB boat, with her smaller jib, needs a handicap rating to equalize her against the wing keeled boat, with the bigger jib. In other words, because the rigging of the WB prevents it from carrying a 135% jib, it is unfair to have the wing keel and the WB racing against each other in light air without a rating that equalizes them. I don't think the WB needs a favorable rating, if the two boats are flying 110% jibs.

I've raced against Jim Carney a lot at Brookville Lake, and agree with Bryan that Jim got as much out of his sister's WB boat as anyone could, but this year was definitely Bryan's year. I doubt that anyone could have beaten Bryan this year with another wing keel boat. He was at the top of his game.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/28/2003 13:45:47

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andy
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Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 16:15:56

Steve
I couldn't agree with you more. We've been club racing our WB boat for several years now, mostly against C25's. Our club uses portsmouth ratings so we sail with a 95. This year the C25's have a 96... so if it isn't blowing 15kt+ we get hammered. We've learned to depower in the puffs, keep the heel less than 20 and when its blowing, we are competitive. I can tell you from a lot of experience that off wind in less than 10kt, a C25 with a 155 will pass us like we're dragging a sea anchor. There is no reason to believe that the same thing wouldn't happen with a WK boat with a 135 in the same wind. Sail size=horsepower.... in hot rodders terms, "there's no substitute for cubic inches" or sq. feet!

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid
C250WB #163
MHYC McCall Idaho elv.5000' lat.45N

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 18:35:30

Yesterday, in the strong winds, I trimmed the jib in flatter than the owner/skipper had been accustomed to doing, and he seemed to agree that the flatter jib helped keep her on her feet. If it had been my boat, I would also have put more tension on the halyards and the outhaul in those conditions. Because it is so important for the C-250 to sail upright, I think you need to do everything you can to flatten the sails, and get every little bit of the wrinkles and scalloping out of the sails in strong winds.

Andy, why don't you talk to your race committee about giving your boat a different handicap for winds below a certain speed. They ought to experiment with different numbers until they find a number for light air that results in your boat finishing in roughly the same place in light air as it usually does in heavy air. It doesn't have to be exact, but it would be nice if it is close enough so that you are at least competitive.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 20:05:45

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> This year the C25's have a 96... so if it isn't blowing 15kt+ we get hammered. We've learned to depower in the puffs, keep the heel less than 20 and when its blowing, we are competitive. I can tell you from a lot of experience that off wind in less than 10kt, a C25 with a 155 will pass us like we're dragging a sea anchor. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I hope that rating is not for a C25tr/fk. There is no way a tr/fk should have a higher number than the c250wk or wb.

Steve's c25 tr/fk was faster than our c250wk on all points of sail. Of course he had a 155% headsail and a mast 2' taller and the boom a foot lower so his sail area is 18 to 20% more than us. In the moderate winds we had at the Nationals our 2 boats were close going to the windward mark but it seemed that Steve would sail the down wind part of the course faster than us.

Everybody seems to think the C250 does not sail well in heavy air. I will agree that my c250wk sails at it's best in winds from 8 to 12 mhp. I don’t think we loose a lot of performance from 12 to 20 either. If the boat is kept to a heel 20% or under it will sail good in all wind conditions.

The fastest I have sailed this boat was in 18 to 22 mph winds, on a beam reach with a single reefed main and the 135% jib furled in to about 100%. We never heeled more than 15 degrees.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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andy
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Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 20:44:02

Bryan
That 95 portsmouth is for the standard rig. The tall rig is rated around 91-93(I think). I really don't know why the 250 is rated that way. Last year we were a (95) () meaning very few imputs...but we lived with it. Luckly, I've badgered our committee into (lately) putting us into the open high class. Since we have another 250WB in the club now + a slew of hunter 26's, at least we have a chance in our little races to place in class. I really enjoy racing the C25's if the winds blowing. We've beaten most of them at one time or another...just NEVER in light and variable wind.
I will tell you guys that the 250 is very competitive in light wind...if you pump about 2/3 of the ballast out of it!!!! Just hope it doesn't get puffy. I haven't had the balls to do it yet, but I have thought about it.

Andy

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Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 20:58:32

Steve
We run the sails as flat as they'll go in the wind. I agree. I'm also thinking a traveler might be a good addition after all. It would definitely allow depowering while keeping the sail flat and under control in the heavies. It's really important to keep the heal of a 250 as constant as you can for max performance... I'll work the main sheet and look at the inclinometer to keep it constant through a gust. We see guys rounding up all the time because they're typically overpowered. The wife steers.. I trim, that works and it keeps her from yelling at me!!!

Andy

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 01:48:14

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> The wife steers.. I trim, that works and it keeps her from yelling at me!!! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That is always a plus.

Here is a link to the racing page of the Brookville Lake Sailing Association in southeast Indiana. They use the Portsmouth rating system and have the c250wb rated close to yours. If you click on past years of racing you will see a c250 wb placed 3rd last year in the racing series and it is 5th so far this year.

http://home.fuse.net/blsa/racingm.html

Bryan Beamer
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Daylight Again
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2003 National Champion

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Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 12:31:38

Bryan
I think in our case the C25FK might be rated a point or two too high. Seems to me the tall rigged boat in our club is rated around 91. I'm going to give our race chairman that website... thanks. It's not a huge issue with me. Our club is more social than hard core racing. We love to race and have the attitude that if we feel we sailed the boat well, that's enough. We've taken 3rd in the C25 class in our big race of the season for 2 out of the last 3 years so I guess the h'cap #'s aren't too far off. It is frustrating when you beat a bunch of C25's to the windward mark and the wind dies... They reel you in and then proceed to go over the horizon...ARGGPFXOOXRPUTT!! ps: congrats champ...pull that baby up to McCall and sail with us...I'll garantee a great time!

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB #163
MHYC McCall, Idaho elv.5000' lat.45N

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 13:14:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> pull that baby up to McCall and sail with us...I'll garantee a great time!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks for the offer but I did my 3000 mile road trip with the boat this year. That is enough boat pulling for me this year.

Bryan Beamer
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Champipple
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Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 17:27:53

Unfortunately I don't get over to this side of the message board as often as I should. That was one nice thing about the old forum, everything was laid out on the same page.

I admitedly don't know much about the C250. The last regatta I was able to attend in 2001, in Detroit, didn't have any 250's show up. The local PHRF authority has never measured one, so my local "knowledge base" is nil.

As the current, and possibly future, chief measurer of the organization I whole heartedly back any changes to the rules that make racing more fun and enjoyable and increase the participation. I also encourage input from anyone.

The goal here, seeing that the participation of 3 or more boats in each class/style of the 250 is going to be a rare occurence, is to create a level playing field. Unfortunately, trial and error is how many rules have come about in one design. Trial and error has also been how the various adjustments have been awarded/penalized to many boats within a given rating system. This means it might take us a few years to tweak any system we put in place.

While ratings are not a perfect world solution, they are, in many instances the only solution we have. However, course selection might also level the playing field. Like I said, I am not at all familiar with the boat, its physics or its mechanics. I am however familiar with racing. In many regatta's we do a combination of windward leewards and olympic triangles because some boats perform better or worse on the varying courses. Could that at all be the case here? (I don't know so please tell me)

What about contingent rules - If x number of boats show up then Y occurs. If Z number of boats have drifters, they T. And so on. Again, the goal is to get as many people to the function.

Lastly, in the absence of a glut of 250's coming to the regatta, we might think about looking into another rating system to fill the current void. There are many out there, PHRF, Americap, portsmouth, et al. As an association we could buy the software for something else. We could also pose our dilemma to US Sailing. (as a matter of fact, I will email them sometime tomorrow to see if they have any input)

We supposedly have a sailmaker/PHRF measurer with us next Wednesday, I will pick his brain and see what is out there. Hopefully he has some ideas.

In the meantime, and again pardon my ignorance, could someone list for me the multitudes of configurations for the 250.

Duane

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
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Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 18:39:54

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> In the meantime, and again pardon my ignorance, could someone list for me the multitudes of configurations for the 250.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

1995 thru 2002 water ballast was only available from the factory with a 110% headsail
due to rig design.
1997 thru 1999 wing keel was available in a tall rig and a 150% or 135% headsail
110% was standard
1997 thru present wing keel is available with a 135% headsail 110% is standard

Sometime in 2002 thru present the water ballast rig design was made identical to the wing keel. Now the water ballast is available with a 135% headsail 110% is still standard.

Looking at the information I have both versions come standard with roller furling.

Bryan Beamer
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