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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Cross (Windward) Jib Sheeting

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/10/2003 : 15:36:29

Has anyone set up a cross sheeting system?

Since I singlehand, I've found that the heel angle and the pressure on the sheets make it nearly impossible for me to hold the helm on course AND trim the foresail when it's blowing above about 12.

So, I'm interested in discovering how to rig a cross sheeting system. My current configuration is an '86 C25 with Genoa roller cars on toe rail tracks, jib winches on the coamings, and a tiller rigged with a tamer. Also, curious about how bad it is moving around in the resulting "spider's web".

(I'm leaving for the boat now and won't return until Monday. So, I won't be able to respond to comments until then.)

Thanks for your help and advice.

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 16:16:58

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Since I singlehand, I've found that the heel angle and the pressure on the sheets make it nearly impossible for me to hold the helm on course AND trim the foresail when it's blowing above about 12.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I, too, singlehand quite a bit and find it somewhat difficult to steer and trim at the same time,...that's why I purchased an autopilot.

Even though I have almost perfected the art of trimming the headsail while holding a course with my toes gripped onto the end of the tiller(it looks like something out of Cirque du Soleil), I've found the use of an autopilot to be about the only real help while singlehanding.

Just something to consider.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 17:20:49

I haven't set one up, but a lot of your racing sailboats (smaller ones J-22 and 24's) do that without any special rigging. It might be as simple as a couple of extra cheek blocks mounted on the deck or cockpit coaming.

The downside, of course is that you will always have to play leapfrog with the windward sheet if you want anything out of the cabin.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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dgabel
1st Mate

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USA
75 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 17:26:51

I often sail with a friend who has an Abel-Poitoin (predecessor to the Js) 24 with cross sheeting. The sheets run through blocks that take them to the stern, where they cross over the transom and return to winches mounted on the cabin top. On their travels they go through sets of blocks that can be adjusted to set the trim angle on the genoa. This arrangment means the cockpit is always clear of sheets, and trimming the genoa is much easier when the winch is to windward.

My friend also often single-hands, but usually not in a high wind. His two-speed winches make trimming easier than would otherwise be the case.

Dave Gabel
Walkure, fin keel, tall rig
Sail 1484

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 20:43:45

The only time thast we cross sheet is when we get an override on the leeward winch...<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
What is wrong with this idea - just bring the jib sheet from the leeward winch, across the cockpit and wrap on the windward winch and cleat there? Too much of a K.I.S.S. principle? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I think also, that if the heel angle is too great, that maybe you have too much sail up...I often single-hand and usually drive from the leeward side so that I can trim more easily, and also just have a bungee cord acting as a tiller control.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 20:47:30

J.B. Manley,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Has anyone set up a cross sheeting system?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I've done it without any additional rigging. I lead the jib sheet two or three turns around the leeward winch, across the cockpit, and two or three turns around the windward winch.

As a bonus, this makes sheeting in without a winch handle easier. I start with the the line across the cockpit between the winches taught. Using the same hand that's tailing, I tug aft on the middle of the crossed line. When I hear the leeward winch click, I slide my hand to leeward, tailing the windward winch until it clicks. Repeat as needed. If I need to cleat off, I can use either jib cleat.

Having the jib sheet across the cockpit is in the way a bit when going from tiller to cabin, but it's not a big deal for me. Give it a try, what have you got to loose?

-- Leon Sisson

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 21:01:05

My C25 (and at least one other resident C25 here) are rigged with tracks for a self tending jib arrangement.

I haven't tried mine out yet, but usually the jib sheet is run from a block on the trackcar and the track lets the car go from side to side and take care of the tacking.

After having a self-tacking jib on my V23, I'm quite spoiled in that respect... You just drive the boat, enjoy the ride and adjust trim as necessary.

Post back if you want me to PM you some photos of the setup.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 22:54:15

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What is wrong with this idea - just bring the jib sheet from the leeward winch, across the cockpit and wrap on the windward winch and cleat there? Too much of a K.I.S.S. principle? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Nope, Derek. That's exactly what I do. On port tack, the sheet goes 90 degrees around the starboard winch before crossing the cockpit. On starboard tack, the sheet goes 270 degrees before it crosses. It's simple and easy and it works. The only drawback is having to climb over the sheet if I go below, but that's no big thing. It's a system that costs exactly nothing.

Brooke

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 15:04:34

Pretty steady 5-15 mph and gusts to 20+ all day Friday, Saturday and Sunday, including one hell of a surprise squall yesterday morning with a max velocity to 30. So, Necessity IS the Mother of Invention and thank goodness for one line jiffy reefing.

Thanks for all the great responses:

Duane, Derek, Leon and Brooke - Once round the leeward winch and across the cockpit to the windward winch is exactly what I did. The set-up worked really well and was much more comfortable and controllable. Leapfrogging over the sheet to get another beer wasn't too bad, but I kept breaking my cigarette and hitting my forehead on the sheet while bending over to get a look at my taletells. <img src=icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>

Derek - I don't know about Canyon Lake, but I'm guessing your situation is similar to mine. When the wind blows on Grand Lake it typically blows 5-10 with gusts to 15 or 10-15 gusting to 20. I'm very comfortable with full mainsail and 155% Genoa up to about 15, but I'll admit that up around 15 is pushing it. The dilemma has been to sail the majority of the time underpowered or figure out how to deal with being overpowered during the relatively short bursts. For me, anyway, being underpowered makes for a less enjoyable sail. Therefore, I fly the 155% in the 5-10/15 range and the 110% 10-15/20 range. Then reef, then storm jib, then reefed main alone. I'm guessing that coastal sailors drop down sooner, because the velocity is more constant? I'd be interested in hearing opinions and perspectives.

Duane and Dave - Our lake is an average 3/4 mile wide and runs from the SW to the NE with prevailing winds from the S and the N. So, it's tack, tack, tack (America's Cup grinders should train on our lake. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) Unfortunately, I don't think an Autopilot would work in our environment, and that's probably why I've never seen one on Grand. That and the number of boat bucks. However, I do like Dave's "round the transom" block layout and may eventually give that a try.

Bruce - I, and probably others, would benefit from seeing the self-tacking jib set-up and learning more about it. Would you mind posting the pictures in the technical tips section?

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 15:19:44

J.B. - you are right. Canyon Lake has very similar conditions to yours (only we can and do, get a much wider wind range at times - like 5 to 20! I've found the easiest way to deal with the gusts is to "feather up" to weather as they hit - if you fall off when close-hauled you will get clobbered! If you do start to round-up you can do a controlled one and get a boat length further to windward (real handy when trying to lay the mark!). <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 16:10:32

When I crewed on a friend's Ensign we did cross jib sheeting, ususally with a blade. but as others have suggested, one around the leeward winch and then wrapping on the weather winch seems to me like it would work. As Derek said he prefers to drive from the leeward rail, so do I. Gives me a good opportunity to keep my eye on the telltails on the jib. I would also concur that 15 degrees heel is probably too much, and reducing sail will reduce heel without sacrificing speed, resulting in a more comfortable ride. I have been out several times in 10 to 15 gusting to 20, and have found the boat much easier to sail when I reduced the jib. Of course I have a roller furler so that makes that sail reduction a piece of cake.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 16:14:34

Don,

What's a "blade"?

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 12:26:17

A blade is a small jib.

I've found that when the boat is overpowered, it actually slows down (perhaps in part because at excessive heel, there's more wetted surface in the water). When I change to a smaller jib or even reef in big wind, the boat can actually speed up. In fact, the fastest my GPS has ever recorded (6.7 kts) was using the 110 jib, not the jenny.

Brooke

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 12:38:31

Thanks, Brooke. I'd not heard that term before.

I agree completely and have noticed the same reduction in speed due to excessive heel and weatherhelm. These are great, speedy little boats and don't require, or respond well, to overpowering. I was making 4-4.5 knots beating off a lee shore in a squall Sunday with just a reefed main. I think any foresail at all would have reduced speed in that situation.

With that said, the daredevil in me does like to see the toerail getting washed occassionally. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 12:57:42

Thanaks Brooke for answering the blade question. On the Ensign it is probably a 90, and is very easy to release from one tack and snap in on the other. It is a one person job. But while it has windward advantages, it is dog sail, on an Ensign when sailing off the wind.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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