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Need Sail Trim Advice - A BAD day sailing

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Rollins
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/12/2003 : 22:22:26

I’ve had my 1989 C25 SR/WK for just under a year now. Last year, a flood kept us from launching until very late in the season. And this season, due to job changes, and other life issues, I haven’t been sailing much at all. This is to day that I’m really inexperienced . . . so be kind.

Most of the time when there’s decent wind, we sail in the 4+-knot range with a moderate amount of heel under a full main, and a 150 headsail.

Today, the wind was supposed to be around 10MPH according to the weather forecast; but when we got to the lake, the waves were really rolling with some whitecaps, and the wind was gusting; not sure what the wind speed actually was. I raised a main and 110 jib and we quickly hit 4 knots. But then the gusts came, and really laid the boat over to the point the tiller was very hard to handle, and the heel angle got pretty scary. When I would tack to change direction, and the sails caught the wind, the boat would heel hard and really take off! After four or five attempts at controlling the boat, we gave up and went in. Other boats were sailing in a race, and did not seem to be heeling as badly. It didn’t look like they had reefed their mains, though several we could see had RF jibs that were furled in pretty much.

My crew (the wife), who has never been nervous about sailing before, got a little spooked today; as did I to be honest. I normally feel like I have some semblance of control – but not today. I finally dropped the headsail, and things got much more tame, even too tame.

I guess I could have reefed the main; but nobody else was that I could tell. Did I just have too much headsail? Is my ignorance about sail trim catching up with me? How the heck do you ever learn to be good at this?!?!?!?!?

This forum has some great sailors; I can tell from your posts. Tips, suggestions or info on good reading appreciated. I fear another episode like today, and my crew will not go with me anymore.

Anyway, thanks in advance for your advice about sailing technique in strong wind.

Edited by - on

jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2003 : 22:52:09

Sailing advice recommends that it is time to reef when you first think about it. I too am really a sailing novice. From advice received instead of my experience, if the wind is picking up, reduce sail more than you think you really need to. You can always set more later, and even experiment to see if the addition should be in the headsail or the main, provided you have first assured yourself that you are capable of sailing under reduced sail. Reduce sail any time the boat is heeling excessively, there is too much strain on the sails or rigging, when high winds make it hard to control the boat, or if you just don't feel comfortable with the sail set. Loss of rudder control may occur with the wind abeam if excessive heel raises the rudder high out of the water. Let the main sail out any time that the pressure is excessive. For another rule, "If in doubt, let it out". If the thought of reefing goes through your mind, do it. This applies to any reduction in sail; if you find yourself considering it, do it.

John
3973

Edited by - on

weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 00:26:09

Hi,

I agree with John, and would like to emphasize "playing the main" to spill the gusts, at least untill you can reduce sail area. Also, if possible, sail off the wind. You should be able to handle more wind on a beam reach. I'm not familiar with water ballast boats, so I'll ask a dumb question: Did you have all of your water ballast tanks full? And of course, make any and all sail adjustments that will flatten them out, i.e. sheeting angles, cunningham, luff tension, outhaul, etc.

Take care,

Mark Eichman
Lake Don Pedro,CA
'86 c25 TR, SK

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 00:43:15

A few suggestions... first, a couple purchases.

Get a 'clinometer' (measures angle of heel). If you're new to this, it's kind of hard to tell how much you are heeling. Often it will seem that the boat is heeling a lot more than it really is.

Having a reference will let you start building a mental database of how the boat performs (and feels) at different angles of heel. These are inexpensive and a good place to mount one is under the companionway so you can see it from the helm.

Second purchase, a simple hand-held anemometer (wind speed meter), This will let you know exactly what kind of wind conditions you are in rather than have to guesstimate. It also adds to your personal 'database' of sailing knowledge.

If you're new to sailing, "reef early and often". Start easy, remember that you're the master of your own vessel, sail her the way you want.

Sailing is extremely simple but maddeningly complex all at the same time.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 03:47:58

If you are a relative novice, I would suggest that you not sail in whitecaps without a reef in the main, especially upwind where the apparent wind is much stronger. While it might be fun downwind, turning around can make a HUGE difference in apparent wind speed.

I have an 80% jib that I like a lot when things start to feel a bit overpowered with larger headsails.

I did a race today on the Columbia River that started in a zepher. By the end, the weather was changing a lot, with a front coming through. We were racing, so did not reef and we kept the 150% and felt in control. Just after the finish, we caught a freak gust out of nowhere that must have been 30+ knots. I dumped the main, but it was too late. Never have I come that close to a complete knockdown. I am sure we were over 80 degrees, but the mast was not in the water. I am a pretty experienced sailor, but that gust was really freaky. I was standing on the seatback of the leeward seats with my back slammed against the weather coaming. I thought, "If this boat heels just a tad more, I am going in the drink.

All this to say, when cruising especially, smaller headsails and an early reef can be a good idea. You never know when that freak Tsunami might be coming!

Gary B.

Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 09:36:31

In addition to the great advice you've gotten so far, another easy adjustment is to move your jib sheet lead blocks aft three or four holes on the "T-track". This will help you flatten the bottom 1/2 of the jib and (at the same time) let wind spill out of the top 1/2. Less pressure at the top usually equals less heel angles.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 09:47:45

Hi,

On Moonglade we are casual sailors with our main objective to enjoy the day and unwind from the stress of our work. Since adding a roller furling headsail we enjoy sailing more, every time we are out. If the wind comes up we furl the jib and continue to enjoy the day rather than head back to the dock. I will often reef the main when needed but find it easier and faster to furl the jib.

After a few wild times when we were learning to sail we adopted a rule for our boat. If anyone on board is really nervous due to the amount we are heeling we reduce sail. This keeps most everyone happy and I never have trouble finding crew on sailing day.

Chris
Moonglade 80 SK

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 13:29:12

Mike,

First let me say that our C25's are tuff little boats, given that the standing and running gear are in good shape. They will withstand a lot more than we probably want to.

The conditions you described are just typical on SF Bay where yesterday it was 15-20, gusting to 25. Between Alcatraz and Angel Island, its called Hurricane Alley, the prevailing winds blow directly into the Golden Gate, through the Alley, building waves. The ocean swell comes in too, giving some fun wave combinations. So, on our way to Sausalito on Friday pm we were double reefed with 50% of the jib up, doing hull speed + 2kts of current, moderate heel. Coming home Sat. on the last stretch we cross a bay and the gap in the hills makes it blow like crazy. So the jib was reefed about 50% and I had one reef in the main. Probably could have reefed the second set, but I was lazy and it's a short stretch, so I kept the mainsheet uncleated in my hand to ease in the puffs. We were heeled about 35 degrees, doing hull speed. Yippee!

Hey Jude is set up for SF Bay, and has a roller furler and a reinforced main with two sets of reef points. All lines led aft. I have single line reefing for both points. Triple purchase boom down haul, triple purchase outhaul, extra wire purchase on the vang giving 8:1, split backstay controls. With practice, you can reef singlehanded in less than a minute. On a typical day, because of the hills, gaps, buildings, etc. I may reef and shake out two or three times. I do a lot of singlehanded sailing.

So, my suggestion is keep learning. Learn to use all your sail controls quickly to optimize the mainsail. Try stuff. Hey Jude behaves a little differently and is set up a little differently than my buddy Paul's Sparky. I am learning how to keep up with him, cause his is the faster boat (He uses hank on jibs and has more experience).

The more experience, capability and confidence you have will allow you to sail flat when you have guests aboard, and charge like hell when you want adventure. Just be safe. I always wear my inflatable PFD suspenders when I'm alone, and I hook on if I have to go forward.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

Edited by - on

rwdutton
1st Mate

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USA
52 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 15:50:39

All the above posts contain excellent advice. We club race "Puff" and on occasion have run into heavy winds and waves on Long Island Sound. Adjusting the boom traveler all the way to leeward will take some power off, and the boat will heal less. I have improved my boom traveller so that it can be more easily adjusted by a crew member. (Catalina Direct has a neat kit, but this time I made my own -- It allows the lines to come forward into cleats.)
But reducing sail area is the only way to make a big difference. You should also look into a single-line jiffy reefing system if you don't already have one (also call Catalina Direct for this ... or look in the technical tips section of this website.

Bob Dutton
Puff #4336 84 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 17:43:04

It’s safe to say that every sailor on this forum, and all those racers and sailors in your area, have been caught in a blow with too much sail up. When a sailboat heels excessively, it’s because the sails are generating too much power. There are two reasons why sails generate too much power: (1) there is too much wind pressure blowing on too much sail area, and (2) the sails are not trimmed so that they have the correct shape.

Wind Pressure on Sail Area

You can't control how hard the wind is blowing, but you can control the amount of wind pressure on the sails, and you can control the amount of sail area that is exposed to the wind. If you reduce either, the boat will not heel as much.

As between the mainsail and the jib, most of the heeling moment is caused by the mainsail. You can quickly reduce the heeling by easing off the mainsheet traveler, or by easing out the mainsheet and letting the mainsail luff. If the boat is still heeling excessively and nearly out of control, then reduce the pressure on the jib by easing out the jibsheet and steering the boat into the wind. All these techniques reduce the pressure on the sails, but they only provide temporary relief from excessive winds. They buy you time to reduce your sail area.

On any sloop you have two basic choices. You can reduce the area of the mainsail, or you can reduce the area of the jib. If you ease the mainsheet and allow the mainsail to luff completely, and if the boat is still heeling excessively, then you need to reduce the size of the jib. If you luff the mainsail and the boat stops heeling excessively, then the size of the jib is okay, and you need only put a reef in the mainsail.

Sometimes, new boats do not have very efficient reefing systems. You should be able to reef the mainsail while underway in a minute or less. If you cannot, you need to upgrade your reefing system. If you can only tuck in a proper reef while you are tied up at the docks, that doesn’t help you very much when a sudden squall strikes while you are sailing far from shelter. Ask some experienced sailors to look over your reefing system, to see if it is adequate. If you have an adequate reefing system, you need to learn how to use it, and then practice with it.

If your jib is a roller furling jib, you can reduce the sail area of the jib by partially, or completely, rolling it up. If it is a hank-on jib, you can reduce the sail area by hanking on a smaller jib, or by dropping it completely. (If you have a large and a small hank-on jib, I suggest that you fly your large jib only in the lightest of winds, until you gain experience and self-confidence. The smaller jib is easier to handle, and the boat will be much more user-friendly through a wider range of windspeeds.)

Sail Shape

If your sails generate too much power, they will cause the boat to heel excessively. You can shape your sails to increase or decrease the amount of power they generate. You power down your sails by flattening them, and you power them up by shaping them in a way so that they have a deeper pocket.

When you are beating to windward in strong winds, and the boat starts to heel excessively, you should begin to use various sail adjustments to flatten the shape of (power down) the sails. The jib can be flattened by putting more tension on the jib halyard and by putting more tension on the jib sheet. The jibsheet should be adjusted so that the 110% jib is within about 1” from touching the spreader. The jibsheet should be adjusted so that the 150% genoa is within about 6-8” from the spreader. When the wind gusts, the sailcloth stretches, and the distance of the sail from the spreader will increase. When that happens, you should crank in the jib sheet even further, until the sail is at the proper distance from the spreader. When the gust abates, ease the jib sheet, to keep the sail at the proper distance from the spreader. You can also depower the jib by moving the jib sheet lead blocks aft, as Dave suggested.

The mainsail and jib can be flattened by putting more tension on the backstay adjuster (if your mast and rig are tuned correctly). You can flatten the mainsail along its foot by increasing the tension on the outhaul. You can flatten the leading edge (luff) of the mainsail by putting increased tension on the downhaul, or by putting tension on the cunningham.

At your level of experience, it would be very helpful for you to sail with an experienced sailor, especially in strong winds. (Don’t be bashful about asking. Most sailors are very sociable, and will be happy to help.) Ask him or her to show you how to raise the mainsail and jib with the correct amount of tension, and how to trim your sails for various courses. (Remember that when you raise your sails, you should put more tension on the luffs of your sails in strong winds than you would in light winds.) If the luff of your jib or mainsail sags off or is scalloped, the boat will heel excessively and will not sail close to the wind. Therefore, pay special attention to raising your sails and to sail trim when going to windward, because sailboats have a greater tendency to heel when going to windward than on any other course, and by raising and trimming your sails correctly, you will greatly reduce that tendency. If you raise the correct amount of sail area, and tension your sails correctly, and trim them correctly for the intended course, your boat will sail much more upright.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 22:07:48

Have a look at this site it might help you. http://pacificasarisaristore.com/vhosts/santana3030/speed_tips.htm

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

Rollins
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 20:40:17

Fellow Cat 25 Owners:

I cannot thank you enough for the great advice. And thanks to many of you who sent me a separate email with advice as well. After a nerve-racking day last weekend, I was about ready to hang it up. Now I'm even more determined to get good at this.

I'd also like to say that this is absolutely THE BEST owner forum of any kind I have EVER been associated with. I've joined about five different forums over the last few years. The technical advice, both about the boat, and sailing skills, on this forum is fantastic. I can learn more in one thread on a topic here than I could learn from hours of reading and research.

Anyway, thanks again for the great advice, and the encouragement.

Mike Rollins

Edited by - on

steephen
Navigator

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100 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 22:24:08

I've heard that whitecaps start to form at around 18 knots. But I'm in Maine.....
SZ

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 23:57:56

Mike, if you think you might have been a little 'out of control' take a look at these pictures from SF Bay via Latitude 38...

latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2003/0703/July14/July14.html#anchor1085433

And these are guys who "know what they're doing" !

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 17:45:20

Yup, Clambeach...

That's SF Bay in July. It was just like that Fri, Sat, Sun etc.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 19:37:07

1. I have never put a reef in yet and have been sailing for about 5 years. i have sailed in 10-15 mph winds, my advice would be to keep the full main in those conditions but roll your jib to just about a 50% jib. if you tehn hit a blow, roll tghe jib completely. i always like to have some jib for meneuverability.

2. when the weather forcasts 10mph always expects gusts of about 5-7 more. if it forcasts 20mph expect gusts of 10-12 more, etc.

3. when you were heeled over, were you on a close haul? if so, you can sheet out your sails a bit and let some wind spill off them, i usually use this approach when sailing with friends who get scared of heel.
ex. if you are sailing close hauled, set your sails for a close reach.
if you'resailing a close reach, set your sails for a beam reach.

IF YOU ARE SAILING ON A BROAD REACH OR A RUN, "RUN NOT RECOMMENDED," TIE A LINE FROM THE BOOM TO A CLEAT IN THE FRONT OF YOUR BOAT SOMEWHERE, "a preventer"
YOU WANT TO DO THIS TO PREVENT AN ACCIDENTAL JIBE.

an accidental jibe in high winds can do serious damage: to you, your crew, your shrouds, your gooseneck fitting, and your rigging in general.

i have a stopper knot tied into my main sheet so the boom will not reach the shrouds in a jibe, accidental or not.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo_web.jpg" border=0>

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 19:46:14

almost forgot. if possible, put your crew on the windward rail, try to shift some weight on your boat. it could ease the hell a bit.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo_web.jpg" border=0>

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.