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could i point better if i get rid of my furler

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:30:09

I am very used to a hank on jib that you raise witha halyard, i even have plans on how i can raise it from the cockpit. would the boat pointbetter with a regular old-fashioned 100% jib? i have my chute for beam and broad reaches so i'm not too concerned about the genoa.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="C:Documents and SettingssteveDesktoplogo.jpg" border=0>

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 19:16:19

I think it's pretty much accepted that a hank on foresail will point better than a roller furling regardless of whether you're using a jib or a genoa. Price is better too.

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 19:30:41

A 110% or even larger hanked-on jenny may point just a little bit better... Many sailors will say the the biggest difference is when you reduce sail--that the smaller hanked-on jib will perform and point better than the partially-rolled genny, due to shape and the effect of the roll on the airfoil.

You can not only rig it to be hoisted from the cockpit, but doused as well--running a line from the topmost hank on the jib (not the head) down to a block by the stem fitting, and then back to the cockpit (like a roller furling line). I've done it with a 1/4" line that could go inside a couple of lower hanks to keep it from whipping around when the sail is up. Without this "dousing line", when you release the jib halyard from the cockpit, the jib will probably fall only about 2/3 of the way, and may even be pushed back up the forestay by the wind you're pointing into.

But now that I have roller furling, I won't go back for any performance benefit! For short daysails to nowhere, we often just pull out the genny and leave the main covered--then pull the string and roll the jenny back up. No muss, no fuss! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2003 : 10:07:21

From your post, I get the impression that you are thinking about converting your boat from a roller furling headsail to a hank-on jib, and that your sail inventory will consist of a mainsail, a 100% jib and a chute of some type (apparently a drifter).

If that's your plan, I think you'll find that it won't give you very satisfying performance.

First, let's talk about converting from a roller furling to a hank on headsail. Hank on sails generally point a little higher than roller furling, and are probably a little faster overall. If you plan to race a lot, that's important, but if you plan to cruise, and do just a little racing occasionally, then the performance difference between the two systems is not very important. Your proposed sail inventory suggests that you plan to use your boat more for cruising. If you are primarily a cruiser, the roller furling headsail is unquestionably the way to go. With a roller furler, you no longer have to stumble up to the bow in rough seas to pull down the old hank on sail and to hank on a different sail. Nor do you have to carry a sailbag to the bow on a swelteringly hot day, stuff one sail into the v-berth and hank on another sail. And, when you are done sailing and dog-tired at the end of the day, you don't have to fold and bag your jib before you can relax. You just roll the jib in or out as appropriate. The roller furler is a blessing for a cruiser.

If you have a roller furler, then you can get by very well in most areas with a 135% jib and a mainsail. The 135% jib will give excellent overall performance in light air, and, if you have to roll it up partially in strong winds, it will still provide reasonably good performance to windward. It's a very versatile sail.

Your plan to have a sail inventory consisting of only a mainsail, a 100% jib and a drifter will be very unsatisfying to you. When you are beating to windward in light air, the 100% jib won't provide enough power to drive the boat. In modern parlance, your windward performance in light air will suck.

If you have a 100% or 110% jib and a 150% genoa, you will be able to keep the boat moving well and on her feet in a range of light air as well as heavy winds. With those sails, you can dispense with the drifter. The downwind performance of a C-25 is not greatly improved by a drifter, although it is fun and aesthetically pleasing to see a big, colorful sail flying.

If I were you, I'd keep the roller furler, get a 135% jib, and keep the drifter (just for they joy of flying the drifter). Those sails, along with the mainsail, would give you good overall performance in a wide range of conditions, convenience and pleasure.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2003 : 11:00:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If you are primarily a cruiser, the roller furling headsail is unquestionably the way to go. With a roller furler, you no longer have to stumble up to the bow in rough seas to pull down the old hank on sail and to hank on a different sail. Nor do you have to carry a sailbag to the bow on a swelteringly hot day, stuff one sail into the v-berth and hank on another sail. And, when you are done sailing and dog-tired at the end of the day, you don't have to fold and bag your jib before you can relax. You just roll the jib in or out as appropriate. The roller furler is a blessing for a cruiser.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Steve,

I must take issue with this one part of your response, but it is COMPLETELY a matter of personal preference. My sail inventory consists of three hanked on foresails (i.e., 155%, 110% and 80%). Everything you mentioned above regarding hanked on sails is, for me, an integral and enjoyable part of the sailing experience. I've sailed several friends' boats that have furlers, and the experience (once again, for me) is not the same.

With that said, it is certainly beneficial to rig a jib downhaul (and single line reef system including halyards) back to the cockpit. In fact, I've also rigged a main downhaul back to the cockpit. Whereas, I attached the main downhaul to the top track slide to avoid binding, my jib downhaul is attached to the eye of my wire jib halyard for ease of set-up.

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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jwilliams
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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2003 : 12:53:41

Steve,

Yes, based on my experience sailing side-by-side with buddy Paul nearly every weekend, hank-on will give you better pointing ability and size-for-size (his size of jib compared to how much I have unrolled) a little more speed.

Hey Jude has a CDI furler with a 155. But, bigger ain't necessarily better given the conditions you sail in. If I had it to do over again, I probably would have gotten a 135. 'Cause on SF Bay we have lots of wind. Usually I have to sail at least 20% furled in on a normal day. Into the wind, the 155 fully deployed moves the pressure of the wind aft of the mast, causing a lot of heel.

On the other hand, on a beam reach that big 'ol curl really pulls us along. That's when I can beat Paul.

I agree with Steve Milby about convenience. Hey Jude started out with hank-on jibs. I much prefer the furler for all the reasons Steve cited. To keep up with Paul, I have had to learn (still) a lightness of touch on sail trim, and paying attention. Kirsten says, "Why do you keep fiddling with the sails all the time?" Two answers, speed and it gives me pleasure to see what happens.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk/sr 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2003 : 14:52:45

I installed a cdi ff4 on osmepneo a couple of years ago and love it. The furler makes sail change (amount of jib unfurled) and provides a bigger degree of selection, basically infite possibilities compared to three or four hank on sails. I have found that when I furl I maintain hull speed and have an easier ride. When racing prfc the roller furler gets a 6 second per mile advantage, which is meant to make up for the pointing/speed difference.

While you may find that you use the 100 jib most of the time, I would still want other options. 150 (155), a 135, 110 and a storm jib 80. There are times when, with a 100 jib, you would wish you had a a 135 or a 155. Those times every one will sailing circles around you, (probably not literally) and you will find you time sailing frustrating.

Also on a near reach in relatively strong winds, your drifter might be to much sail, and then you'd be stuck having to use the 100 jib.

My advise is to really think about what you do.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2003 : 21:25:09

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Everything you mentioned above regarding hanked on sails is, for me, an integral and enjoyable part of the sailing experience. I've sailed several friends' boats that have furlers, and the experience (once again, for me) is not the same.
J.B. Manley
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
JB... You're what--twenty-something? You've been on a foredeck in a rising squall, with breaking waves that are pitching the bow 4-6 feet vertically, hanking on a smaller headsail? You love folding and bagging 30' long sails at the end of a long, hot day? That's great! Your pleasures are different from mine. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2003 : 23:26:18

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
JB... You're what--twenty-something? You've been on a foredeck in a rising squall, with breaking waves that are pitching the bow 4-6 feet vertically, hanking on a smaller headsail? You love folding and bagging 30' long sails at the end of a long, hot day? That's great! Your pleasures are different from mine. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Twenty-something...LMAO! Yes, Dave, I do those things on a regular basis, and usually singlehanded. I also sail through the very cold, but mostly dry, Oklahoma winter. Color me romantic, but I throughly enjoy the older aspects of sailing. Haul the main, man the foredeck, douse the foresail, etc. As I said, COMPLETELY a matter of personal preference. Or as stated better by Derek, Chacun a Son Gout.

As a matter of fact, several of us at our marina sail for hours while reading turn-of-the-century sailing novels in "sailor talk". We also regularly engage in multiple boat "ship-to-ship gun battles" - soaking the "limeys" on the enemy ships with ice water soaked splash balls. IMHO, working the layline's got nothing on maneuvering to rake the other guy's transom. Wierd, immature? Maybe, but our kids think it's an absolute blast, and if that's what it takes to keep them, and us frustrated lake-bound sailors, enthused...

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 10:26:08

Note to Self - Don't post to forum when hot, tired, angry and half drunk. Whew, bad day: deal with press and employees regarding newspaper article inappropriately disclosing pending sale and relocation of company, pack and move office three weeks prior to pending layoff, mow lawn in 115 degree heat index, discover temperature upstairs is 97 degrees due to undersized A/C unit, type reply to Dave four times because *(&^%& server won't accept first three attempts. Although, none of the above serves as an excuse for bad manners and defensiveness.

Note to Dave - I'm considering changing Antares' name to Masochist I. Whatcha think? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> BTW, I'm rapidly approaching 41.

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Ellis Bloomfield
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 13:12:21

JB Enjoy those 40s. At somewhere around 50 (Don't remember the exact age but Dave might be able to pinpoint it http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/icon_smile_blackeye.gif,) things like SPAM obsession and a whole host of other distracting things start creeping in.

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 22:40:33

JB: No offense taken whatsoever! I needled you a little, and I enjoyed your imagry! Sorry things went sour--a weekend (and especially a nice evening) on the water should straighten out your perspective... All of 40, huh? From my perspective, that's roughly the same as what I was thinking! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Love the name!

OK, Ellis... My "obsession" with spam was just test-flying the issue of whether the association should look for compensation for commercial uses of its membership list. Maybe Crusing Direct wasn't using it after all, but I still wonder where the found me. I don't mind promotions from marine outfits--WM, B/US and Defender are in my inbox all the time. Maybe I can stop obsessing on commercial values when I can retire from the commercial world... The market has not been helping me in that quest! Otherwise, I'm ready! <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 07/17/2003 22:57:28

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 12:47:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
My "obsession" with spam was just test-flying the issue of whether the association should look for compensation for commercial uses of its membership list.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Oh, thank God! I thought I was going to end up obsessed with fried Spam sandwiches when I get older. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 13:39:55

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

JB... You're what--twenty-something? You've been on a foredeck in a rising squall, with breaking waves that are pitching the bow 4-6 feet vertically, hanking on a smaller headsail? You love folding and bagging 30' long sails at the end of a long, hot day? That's great! Your pleasures are different from mine. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'm siding with you on this one Dave. Going to the bow in 5 footers because a storm kicked up quick and the headsail needs to be changed Is an adrenaline rush, but one I could do without. Walking halfway to china so that I can fold my sails on the lawn is another one of those things I can do without, especially when its 85degrees outside. Albeit the 155 on this boat is small, its still a PITA to carry lug it around.

IMHO, one of the best inventions for cruising is the roller furler, and I wish I had one every time I am clipping on all the hanks. Racings another story of course, but even then a sail change on the windward leg in 6 footers isn't exactly a bed and breakfast either.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 14:44:45

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Racings another story of course, but even then a sail change on the windward leg in 6 footers isn't exactly a bed and breakfast either.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Ya, Duane... I crewed on a C&C 36 one night, racing across Long Island Sound and back in wind-driven rain, with a too-large mylar genny up... With the bow diving through the square waves, the skipper decided to leave it up (and the boat way overpowered), so I spent most of the race holding myself on the windward rail only by my hands and arms, looking down at the dark waves to leeward, figuring if I slipped, I was dead. (The boat's batteries were dead, and their only spotlight was a plug-in unit.)

After the race, I learned that mylar sails can absolutely remove the skin from any body part they touch. I don't ever want to fold another one! I didn't go racing for a while after that night, either. <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 12:55:10

I am dutifully reading the last years posts to learn all that I can learn about my new boat and this rather remarkable group of people that make up the Cat Ass. This thread seems to lack a discussion of the relative merits of the big three furlers. CDI, phttuy; Sheafer proFurl 700, ok; Harken foil, yippee. IMHO the foil of the Harken gives up nothing on pointing, has two luff slots so that you can change sails when racing and is so cool as to make grown men weep with joy. A 135 in a harken foil is a great sail and when it is really blowing you simply drop the 135 and raise a jib. With two luff tracks you do a weather set, tack and pull down the old sail, (keeps the sail on the boat). Disscussing roller furling vs hanking is just too broad to be valid, it really depends on the products. I am currently a hanker but lust after a Harken. I use an 80% with snaps instead of hanks, it is an even cleaner entry than hanks.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 09/18/2003 13:23:25

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 13:16:05

I wish I had a furling main to go with my Schaffer furling 155 genny.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 19:03:13

I have to agree with Frank. A roller furling headsail is perfect for a cruiser (size should be chosen for your usual conditions - you don't need a 155% in S.F. Bay!). For a racer they are terrible (which is why we give them an extra 12 secs per mile on their PHRF). Hank-ons are good, but for a hard-core racer a double-track headstay foil is the way to go (the experts claim it's worth an extra 3 secs a mile!) You can beat to the weather mark with a 100% up in 18 knots, turn, pull up the 155%, drop the 100%, pole out the genoa and boogie! It's the only way you can change headsails without being "bald-headed" for a while. I love it!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek (currently sharing 1st place with a J-24 in our Fall Series)

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 20:53:46

J.B.,

And whats wrong with a FRIED SPAM SANDWICH!!!!

Spam is just another food group, like Vienna Sausages. (Pronounced by my Tisomingo Oklahoma family as Vi-eena Sausage). These little beauties, some fritos and a Corona...that's a sailors dream. Almost as good as lobscouse and a drowned baby for dessert.

Just like bologna (pronounced bolo-nee) is a separate food group. Of course, cut lines partially through the slices before you fry'em. And put lots of yellow mustard on your Wonder Bread.

Ah, the joys of shipboard cuisine. Sardines, crackers, Dinty Moore, warm beer, Italian sauage sliced off the roll and cheese with baguettes, white wine mixed with anything cold, Aquavit after you hoist the sails.

I'm goin' tomorrow!!!

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 21:09:19

<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oh, and thanks, Frank, for dredging up my first foray into this forum!
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 21:17:10

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...Italian sauage...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
...pronounced EYE-talyun...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Aquavit after you hoist the sails.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Hoist or douse?? Looking to get written up for an SWI?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 09:29:45

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>remarkable group of people that make up the Cat Ass.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Can we make up T-shirts with this on it?

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

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