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main down haul

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weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/19/2003 : 21:55:06

Hello,

This may be a strange question to most, but here goes: Why do most
trailerables have a sliding gooseneck for the boom? Why not a fixed gooseneck, and adjust the luff tension with the halyard, and flatten the sail with the cunningham? I suppose some people raise the main all the way up, and then use the downhaul for luff tensioning.
This question came up for me when I was considering buying the "kicker" offered by Catalina Direct.

Thanks for listening:)

Mark Eichman
Lake Don Pedro,CA
'86 c25 TR, SK

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2003 : 09:03:55

Hi Mark,

I do exactly as you said regarding raising the mainsail all the way up and then tensioning with the cunningham. This allows me maximum head clearance in the cockpit, as well as the ability to use a bimini.

With that said, however, I use a sail stop above the gooseneck to obtain my first position (i.e., normal amount) of tension. So, I'm only tensioning the cunningham when trying to point really high or when the wind is really blowing.

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2003 : 10:19:43

"Why do most trailerables have a sliding gooseneck for the boom?

I suppose a sliding goosneck makes it a little easier to take the boom off for stowing the mast.... makes for one less thing to unbolt.

Mac's didn't come with sliding goosenecks stock tho.. (at least not any I've seen). A bolt hole is drilled through the mast... this, plus a little retaining bracket and crank provided a 'roller furling' feature on the boom. You just roll up the mainsail on the boom to furl or reef.

Check out the beautiful rigid boom vangs by Garhauer...

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

weluvlife
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166 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2003 : 11:55:21

Thankyou for the replies. I may look at the fixed boom mounts, unless I hear of a reason to keep the sliding gooseneck.

Mark Eichman
Lake Don Pedro,CA
'86 c25 TR, SK

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weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2003 : 11:58:23

Do most of you use the main halyard and then the cunningham to tension the luff for heavy air, or do you just keep the main halyard just tensioned enough to keep the sail pulled up all the way, and only rely on the cunningham for all other luff tension adjustments??

Mark Eichman
Lake Don Pedro,CA
'86 c25 TR, SK

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2003 : 23:50:35

"Wood Duck" (2616) is rigged as follows. The gooseneck rests on a sailstop. When the main is raised, it rises one inch or so off the sailstop until the downhaul takes the tension. I use the cunningham to flatten the sail. I have also rigged the main with a downhaul halyard. It is marked at the cleat (led aft to the cabin top) as is the main halyard for reefing position. I have set up a single line reefing (also led aft). The two halyards with their markings and the single line reefing allow me to reef without exiting the cockpit in a matter of sixty seconds or less. I copied this from a set-up Bill Holcombe designed. It is first-rate.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2003 : 00:40:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I may look at the fixed boom mounts, unless I hear of a reason to keep the sliding gooseneck.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I have a sliding gooseneck also, but I have a sail stop both above and below the gooseneck which essentially makes it fixed.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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cat5951
Deckhand

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17 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:58:01

So called mk 4 models have a fixed boom and need a cunningham to tension the main.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2003 : 17:38:20

Now here's a really stupid question. My 89 has a fixed gooseneck. Maaybe that is irrelevant to my question.

Why does one use a cunningham to increase luff tension, and not merely tension your halyard.

so there, I have shown my ignorance. Gotta lot to learn Eh?

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2003 : 20:30:56

Frank,

I suspect that one can more precisely tension with a cunningham than using the halyard. Especially if you have a 4-1 system on the cunningham.

Someone once told me the reason for a cunningham vs a down haul had to do with one design racing rules. If you tension with a down haul, the main sail can exceed the sail size limit due to overall stretch. With a cunningham the foot doesn't move and area is fixed. I believe they mark the mast so other boats can see that the boom is not lower than the legal limit.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2003 : 16:13:02

Eric,
If that's the reason for a Cunningham, I say screw it. I don't care about racing right now, and if I do in the future i don't care if I get DQ'd. Let the racers whine. the 4 to 1 purchase on a cunningham makes sense though.
anybody else have a rationale for a cunningham vs tightening up your halyard with a wench, er winch.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2003 : 19:31:38

The gooseneck is pretty much the weakest point on the whole rig and the cunningham, when tensioned, takes some of the load off of it.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2003 : 19:54:29

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...anybody else have a rationale for a cunningham vs tightening up your halyard with a wench, er winch...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Given the choice, I'll take the wench. But then I don't have a wench magnet like that gorgeous '89 tall in the other thread! <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2003 : 11:22:04

Don is right on target! The Cunningham takes quite a bit of the load off the gooseneck. Also, different points of sail can place different stresses on the halyard, and stretch it in different ways. Have you ever noticed how that sail you raised with a drum-tight luff suddenly has unsightly sags between each slug when the wind picks up. A Cunningham can deal with that even while the sail is powered up. Moreover, it allows for the main halyard to be raised not "drum tight", allowing for some sag and pocketing of the main in downwind and light wind sailing. Finally, if your main is not brand new, it probably has a good deal of stretch in it. The Cunningham allows you to mitigate this (somewhat), permitting a higher point of sail. Combined with the outhaul, it gives you some fine-tuning ability. And for the solo sailor (which I am a lot of the time), it gives you one more thing to keep you occupied, and stop your mind from drifting to the yard bills...

Edited by - on

rwdutton
1st Mate

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USA
52 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2003 : 14:59:23

I got rid of the slider and use a block attached to the mast plate, I also installed a cunningham and ran it back to the cockpit through a brake. However, my cunningham is only a 4:1, and I considering making it a bit more hefty next year.
Another feature that helps with main trimming: Two years ago I got a new main, and decided on a loose-footed one with a full batten in the top batten position. We installed an 8:1 outhaul system inside the boom to help adjust the foot of the main and led it back to the cockpit as well. This allows us to play with the settings very nicely.
Cheers,

Bob Dutton
Puff #4336 84 SR/FK
Westport, CT

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 09:08:30

The downhaul and cunningham are not redundant. The downhaul is used to put slight tension on the luff of the mainsail when sailing off the wind. When you turn and begin beating to windward, the cunningham is used to apply additional tension to the luff. In other words, the downhaul applies the minimal tension that you will need for sailing downwind, and the cunningham increases the tension for sailing to windward. It makes it easy to change your luff tension back and forth for sailing to windward and off the wind.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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LeighMarie
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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 12:41:26

This is all great information about the Cunningham. I was out in wind yesterday that I had never been out in before (20+ knots and a wife who was nervous and "Not having fun!") and I had thought about a Cunningham as it would have been nice to use. However, I don't have a Cunningham on mine, do I? My '85 C25 has the original mainsail (next year a new one!), but I don't see a line coming down the luff. There is a grommet (right term?) that I use to reef. Would I attach a line to that to use as a Cunningham? My sail has been crinkling up a lot this year and I just think it's tired, so a Cunningham could work.

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 14:24:29

A cunningham is a grommet located about one foot above the boom. A line is usually attached to a pad eye on the port side of your mast, about one foot below the boom, then it passes through the grommet and is tied off to a cleat located about a foot below the boom, on the starboard side of the mast.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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n/a
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163 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 16:43:26

Another way to tension the Cunningham is to have a pigtail with a reef hook attached to a small, 3 or 4-part tackle. The tackle is attached to the ring on the mast base that the vang also attaches to, and the hook goes into the cringle that's just above the boom. The mechanical advantage allows a little easier tensioning when the sail is loaded (or is the the sailor?...)

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LeighMarie
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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 13:36:18

Thanks for the info.! I thought a Cunningham was the name for the line, not just the grommet. But I'll give it a try!

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 14:27:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Thanks for the info.! I thought a Cunningham was the name for the line, not just the grommet. But I'll give it a try!

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Dave and Sharon - to add to Steve's description, think of it this way. The cunninham controls the luff of the sail along with the halyard. The downhaul does the same, but only by keeping the boom in place. Your boom can't go past the cleat in the kerf.

The Cunningham, first used (or invented) by Briggs Swift Cunningham, who incidently passed away early this month, is, at least now days considered the entire sail control not just the grommet or in my case a loop sewn into the sail.

www.nyyc.org/popup.cfm?content=viewthenews&thenewsid=42

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 16:12:43

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The downhaul and cunningham are not redundant. The downhaul is used to put slight tension on the luff of the mainsail when sailing off the wind. When you turn and begin beating to windward, the cunningham is used to apply additional tension to the luff. In other words, the downhaul applies the minimal tension that you will need for sailing downwind, and the cunningham increases the tension for sailing to windward. It makes it easy to change your luff tension back and forth for sailing to windward and off the wind.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If my memory serves me right, IMSMR, the Cuningham cringle is set back from the luff, unlike the reef cringle which is directly under the headboard cringle. The mainsail should fit your boat! The mast is held at the black band by the downhaul and the head board should not top out except at extreme halyard tension. The luff tension is controled/adjusted by the halyard. The Cuningham is for the purpose of moving the pocket forward in the sail, thereby cleaning up the luff shape under high wind and close hauled conditions. It is a defense against back winding from the headsail.
Steve I used your quote but everyone seemed to say what you were saying. Please remember that I am returning to sailing after 10 years and quite possibly dreamed most of what I remember.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 19:19:09

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If my memory serves me right, IMSMR, the Cuningham cringle is set back from the luff, unlike the reef cringle which is directly under the headboard cringle. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I have had two mainsails on my C-25, and the cunningham cringles on both of them were approximately located in the same relationship to the luff as the reef cringles.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The mast is held at the black band by the downhaul and the head board should not top out except at extreme halyard tension. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

C-25 racing rules don't require that our mast or boom be black banded. The sails are measured off the boat, and no limitation is made on how much they are stretched when on the boat.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> The luff tension is controled/adjusted by the halyard. The Cuningham is for the purpose of moving the pocket forward in the sail, <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Luff tension can be controlled by the halyard or by the downhaul, or by the cunningham. So far as I know there is no one "correct" way to tension the luff. Most of us use whatever device we have, and if we have more than one, we use them in the most functional manner (i.e., whatever works for each of us). The cunningham was optional when I bought my boat. Flattening the mainsail also moves the pocket forward, but IMHO the best way to move it forward is by using an adjustable backstay.

You can raise the mainsail to the top of the mast using the halyard, and then tension the luff by using the downhaul. To put more tension on the luff, you can sit on the boom. Alternatively, you can rig the boom so that it is fixed, and then put tension on the luff of the mainsail by wrapping the halyard once around the cleat and "sweating" the halyard. It can be done in different ways. It doesn't matter how you do it so long as you are able to apply the correct amount of tension for the strength of the wind. Also, you should be able to easily change the halyard tension to suit changing wind strengths.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/18/2003 19:38:13

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 21:56:26

I just went in the living room and unrolled the new main and the Cunningham cringle is where you said it would be. Oh well if senility it be then let it be through good sailing stories. I can hardly wait to see what tomorrow brings.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

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