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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2003 : 15:47:28

Anyone have any thoughts on telltails? Are the factory ones (two on the jib luff and one high on the mainsail leech) sufficient for good sail trim, or is there an advantage to adding more?

Al Maniccia
SeaWolf C250WK #698
Marina Del Rey, CA

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 16:46:05

AL,
When I had my jib repaired last year Doyle Sails put two telltales mid way up the jib, both in the center of the sail I continue to use one telltale on the leach of the main, wanted to keep that KISS principle going. Also for your consideration, when I attended a sailing school last month the instructor recommended tying pieces of a non-used cassette tape to the shrouds and to the backstay. I found that tip to be better than trying to watch the telltales on the jib and main sail all the time. Also I have a Windex on top of the mast and generally have also found the cassette tape way easier to see than the Windex.
"Bear" on Brandy

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 18:40:12

I use the telltales on the shrouds and backstay to tell me the general direction of the apparent wind, and to alert me to any lifts and headers. The telltales on the sails tell me whether the sails are in trim. They let me visualize how the wind is flowing over the surface of the sails. The telltales on the leech of the mainsail tell me if the wind is separating smoothly from the leech. In that order, they provide increasingly specific information. I don't use a windex.

The telltales on my sails are located just aft of the luffs and on the leech of the mainsail. I don't have any in the middle, but have sailed on other peoples boats that had them there, and liked them.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 19:57:46

I have 3 telltales on the leech of the main 1 on each of the lower batten pockets.

I also have 3 sets about 4" from the luff of the 135% furling headsail. They are spaced out equally up the luff. I have 1 set of telltales so when the jib is furled in to 110% the telltales are about 4" from the luff. I also have 1 set to use when the jib at furled in to 80%. So on the headsail I actually have 5 sets of telltales.

I also use a windex and a wind machine on the top of the mast. The wind machine gives me the apparent wind speed and direction on a digital display in the cockpit. I use lightweight colored flagging tape about 1" tall by about 18" long. This works well until the wind raps them around the shrouds or rips them off completely. Then we add more.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d936b3127cce8b4b9fdc511e0000001610" border=0>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The telltales on the sails tell me whether the sails are in trim. They let me visualize how the wind is flowing over the surface of the sails. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

This is also how I use them.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df05b3127cce93a987a188c90000003610" border=0>

The wind machine is the lower display unit. The upper is speed and depth.

<img src="" border=0>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 08:42:26

My variation on Bears cassette tape tell tails for the shrouds has been to use a light knitting yarn. Works great, ties on easy, doesn't seem to slide and... don't laugh... coordinates with the boats colors.

Edgy, WB#655
Rehoboth Bay, DE

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 12:55:20

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"lifts and headers"<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Steve:

Could you describe these terms?

Your descriptions and advice are always fantastic!

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 14:17:21

Al
I run telltails at the factory location on the headsail and one at each batten off the leech on the main. Like the guys said, I want to know how the wind is flowing off the main. Typically you won't get all 'tails flying straight off the main in all wind conditions. Check out the trim section on Ullman Sails website for a better description than I can give you.

Richard.. lift and header refers to wind shifts when beating (close hauled). A wind shift that pushes you on a course away from the mark (or you destination) is a header... also known as getting "knocked" as in knocked away. If you think the header is going to hold, you're going to want to tack. After you tack the header becomes lift. Lift is just the opposite... the wind shift will give you a more direct course to the mark...a good thing. If the wind is constantly shifting, you can end up getting burned beacuse tacking slows the boat. I usually don't tack unless I think the shift will hold.

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB #163
MHYC McCall Idaho

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 15:40:21

Richard - there are two kinds of headers. A true header is where the wind changes direction towards the bow of the boat and is the one that usually requires a tack. The second variety is a "velocity" header where the wind drops momentarily - this you don't want to tack on. It is relatively easy to distinguish them by looking at the water surface - in a velocity header the water looks calmer.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 16:06:20

Richard, Andy explained it well. A lift is a wind shift that takes you on a course that is closer to your destination or racing mark, and a header is a wind shift that takes you on a course that is further away from your destination or racing mark.

But, I would add that lifts and headers don't just happen when you are beating to windward. They also happen when you are sailing downwind. Suppose you are sailing dead downwind, wing-and-wing, in strong winds, with your boom over the starboard side. Suppose the wind shifts in a way so that, to keep the boom from gybing, you have to steer the boat on a course to port of your destination, or the next mark. In that situation, you might want to gybe the boom over to the port side and steer the boat towards the mark on a broad reach on starboard tack. By doing so, you would be taking the shortest, straightest line toward the mark, on the fastest course.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If the wind is constantly shifting, you can end up getting burned because tacking slows the boat. I usually don't tack unless I think the shift will hold. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

As Andy pointed out, sometimes the tell tales will act as if you are being either lifted or headed. A short-lived, sudden decrease in windspeed can look like a header, but it really isn't one. A sudden increase in windspeed can look like a lift. That's because an increase or decrease in windspeed changes the direction of the apparent wind and makes your tell tales flutter. But those gusts rarely last for very long. A true lift or header is a change in the actual direction of the wind. The best way I have found to distinguish between a change in windspeed or some other short-lived phenomenon, and a true lift or header, is to wait 20-30 seconds. If the wind direction persists after that amount of time, usually it is a true shift in wind direction. Of course, every once-in-a-while you get fooled...

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/04/2003 19:54:49

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 19:18:51

Steve
I started to mention about watching for lift when running but my description even confused me! You explained it much better. I will say that understanding lift is probably as important as good sail trim in racing. We race on a high mt. lake where the wind patterns are typically different on different parts of the lake at the same time. We also have to deal with "downbursts" out of clouds that will spin your windex give you a false header and return to your previous tack in 100 yards. That's why some of the experienced mt. sailors that know a given lake can really kick your butt!!! I'm still learning from them.

It can really be a mind fart (until you understand what's happening)to say the least. I think all things considered, it's really good experience to sail in those conditions.

Learning to wait a bit when you hit a header while racing was tough for me. Heat of the battle...an so on, but it's REALLY important. Make 2 or 3 unnecessary tacks in a close race and you've lost it.

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB
MHYC McCall Idaho
Elv.5000' lat 45deg.N

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 12:16:36

Steve, Andy and Derek:

Although I've been on racing boats a couple times, but felt it was a completely different and less enjoyable experience for me than cruising, I've learned a tremendous amount from you racing experts on sail trim, telltale reading, rig adjustment, etc. which have been super usefull in teaching me to sail faster, albeit to a "destination" verses a "mark". Thanks for the good descriptions on lifts and headers -- I'll start looking for them.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 16:12:57

Richard
Thanks for the compliment but whoa!.... I'm no racing expert. The wife and I race for fun in a club that is more social than "racing". I do believe tho that getting into an occasional race for fun, if you have the opportunity, will improve your sailing skills faster. My main goal is to be thought of as a good sailor... I doubt if I'll ever be a very good racer.

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid

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