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Self-Tailing Winches Anyone??

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jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2003 : 21:44:24

I learned to sail mostly on 29 and 30-foot boats. Among the toys on these boats, all had self-tailing winches. I have bare-boat-chartered a 40-footer with furling main and furling jib with an autopilot. These toys are very helpful in handling the larger boats.

I have none of the toys mentioned above and I am considering a tiller pilot for my Catalina 25. Among the toys lusted for by the other owners, where does a self-tailing winch fit in the priority sequence - if it exists at all? How many already have a self-tailing winch?

John
C25 3973 FK/SR
To be renamed "Texas Tango" 26 July 2003

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 22:35:43

My boat came with a pair of self-talers in the cockpit. Very handy for the jib sheets.
Actually, I find that after I come thru the eye of the wind
... if my mate will pull on the leeward sheet like a sum-bich
you can put a good trim on the jib without having to grind.

Funny how we learn (basic) things by accident. <img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>
The last time I sailed my boat, I realized I could pull on the sheet forward of the winch (getting some "purchase" ?) and then the other hand to trim the jib sheet without having to use my winch handle.
Don't know why that hadn't dawned on me earlier.
I would put self tailers ahead of an auto-pilot since
that's what my boat came with. (no auto-helm yet).

Tell us what you get.

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 22:42:28

Self-tailing winches - wonderful for a cruiser. Useless for a racer...
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 22:46:07

John,

Get the autopilot. It is absolutely the handiest semi-nonessential toy I've added to my boat. I'd like to have self-tailing primaries too, but the autopilot came first without hesitation. Another handy upgrade has been all control lines lead aft. Rudder-to-motor steering linkage would be pretty cool too, especially combined with the autopilot.

-- Leon Sisson

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 23:24:34

In my book the jib furler comes first with no close competition--in fact NO competition! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 01:59:35

I don't have self-tailing winches, but with me being primarily a singlehanded sailor, I would think that the self-tailers would get in the way when tacking. Let me explain...

When preparing to tack, I uncleat and hold the working jib sheet keeping 3 or so turns on the drum. While sitting on the windward side still holding the working jib sheet, I put a couple of turns of the lazy sheet on it's drum.

Still holding the working jib sheet, I begin the tack. As the bow moves through the wind, the jib gets backwinded helping to push the bow over faster. At this point, I quickly and artfully flip the remaining turns off of the former working jib sheet winch(now the lazy jib sheet winch) and immediately haul in the new working jib sheet.

With self-tailers, I imagine I would have a problem with flipping the turns from the drum cleanly from the opposite side of the boat due to the stripping arm of the self-tailing winch snagging the line.

Now I could be wrong in this assumption, but even with my nonself-tailing winches I sometimes don't get the turns off cleanly, and I would have to assume that a stripping arm would be even more of an impediment.

Hmmmmmm!...But if I had to prioritize the nice-to-have things, it would probably look like this...

1. furler
2. autopilot
3. bimini

And truthfully, now that I have items 1 and 2, I would classify them as need-to-have's, although I sure do like my bimini!

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 03:12:28

The c250wk comes from the factory with Lewmar 16st. We have since added 2 coaming Lewmar 16st. This was done to get the jib sheets back were the person steering with the wheel could control them.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Now I could be wrong in this assumption, but even with my nonself-tailing winches I sometimes don't get the turns off cleanly, and I would have to assume that a stripping arm would be even more of an impediment.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

This is the first boat I've had with self-tailers. I don't remember it being a problem getting used to them. There is not much differences in size at the top. If anything the self-tailers might be a little taller.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Self-tailing winches - wonderful for a cruiser. Useless for a racer... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

We don't race much but when we do I don't think it hurts us. I personally think adjusting the sail as it stretches is easy with the self-tailers. No sheet to tail you just turn the winch handle. Easing the sail is more difficult than with regular winches. It's just a matter of getting used to them while racing.

I love my headsail furler. I don’t feel the need for an autopilot at the lake we sail in. The wheel lock works just fine.

IMHO The most important thing I can control everything but the second reef from the cockpit.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 03:25:33

I race some and cruise a fair amount. For the sailing I do, I have never lusted for self tailing winches. I race sometimes single handed and rarely use the winch handle anyway by luffing up to sheet in the jenny. I don't mind hanking on different foresails for different conditions so I have an 80, 110, 130, and 2 150s, plus a cruising chute. I don't care for a partially furled headsail, personally, and find that, while my boat will sail well off the wind with lots of canvas, it often wants a smaller jib when going to windward, so I change over when I need. No big deal.

But, hey, for single handed work, long passages, or hours of motoring when there's no air, NOTHING beats a decent autopilot! (For the way I use my boat), everybody has different venues/goals/priorities)

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 10:02:26

I'm with Gary and Leon on this one. I have Lewmar 16STs, and I like them a lot. When I'm singlehanding, it's pretty helpful to be able to easily cleat the jib sheet. . . but a well placed jam cleat would serve the purpose, I suppose.

I have a hanked-on jib. A furler and a new jib (or to have mine recut ) have been lower on my priority list. And, frankly, I can drop my jib faster in a crisis as it is (I also installed a downhaul).

The single greatest addition to my boat after leading all the sail control lines aft (do that first, no matter what else you do) has been the tillerpilot. They're not perfect, but they do enable you to keep the boat on course when raising/lowering/adjusting sails; when going to the head, getting a drink, checking navigation, sitting on the foredeck viewing the sights, whatever. Holding a tiller for hours on end, for me, has ceased to be Great Fun.

I count leading the lines aft and the tillerpilot as the two biggest safety improvements I've made: dashing to the mast and back, or trying to get the sails up or down, before the boat falls off or gybes was frankly dangerous singlehanded.

Self-tailing winches and a roller-furling jib aren't safety issues. A tillerpilot and lines led aft might be.

Brooke

Edited by - brooke willson on 07/18/2003 10:05:31

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 11:19:46

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> ... if my mate will pull on the leeward sheet like a sum-bich
you can put a good trim on the jib without having to grind.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That is a very widely held opinion, but, when you are beating to windward or reaching in strong winds, you can’t trim your jib well without using a winch handle. If your timing is good, you can get the jib sheeted in most of the way, but you can’t consistently get it sheeted in the last few inches, and you can’t make small adjustments in response to lifts and headers. Those few inches make the difference between a boat that can claw to windward and one that cannot, and they make the difference between a boat that stands up and one that heels excessively. Also, when your crew has to use that much strength to handle the sheets, they tire themselves out, and their hands become raw and sore from gripping the sheets. When you have devices that give you mechanical advantage that help you do the hard work, why not use them?

I don’t like to use the heavy winch handles that come with our boats. I keep two inexpensive (about $13.00 each) plastic floating winch handles in the cockpit coaming pockets, so that one is always readily accessible. I never use locking winch handles, because the locking mechanisms don’t work well, and they are often difficult to get in and out of the winch.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Self-tailing winches - wonderful for a cruiser. Useless for a racer...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I have to agree with Bryan. I have used self-tailers while racing on other peoples’ boats, and didn’t feel that they were awkward or difficult to use. You just have to do things a little differently than with non-self tailers. The fact that you have to adjust to them doesn’t make them bad. But, they are certainly not “must haves” that you cannot do without.

For me, when it comes to self tailing winches, the show stopper is the cost. Retrofitting your boat with them is very expensive, and I don’t think the modest benefit is worth the enormous cost, unless you get lucky and find a used set at a good price.

When I bought my boat new, in 1981, I bought 2 speed winches. They were recommended to me by my sailmaker at North Sails, and they only added a little over 1% to the cost of the boat with standard winches. They give you two different speeds of mechanical advantage, and they pull in your jibsheet, regardless of whether you turn the winch handle clockwise or counterclockwise. As a result, you can pump the winch handle forwards and backwards to draw in the jibsheet. Those things don’t sound like a very big deal, but in actual use, they make it much easier to tack and trim the jib.

I agree with Dave. If you are a cruiser, a roller furler has to be at the top of your wish list. If you are a serious racer, forget the roller furler.

I think self steering is indispensable if you are cruising for long distances, because it allows you to escape from the tiller for awhile, but it is obviously of less value on a small inland lake, where you have to tack every mile or so.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 12:40:17

" Easing the sail is more difficult than with regular winches."

Bryan - with all due respect to a National Champion (<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> that is my point. If you race in shifty winds, the genoa trimmer is constantly adjusting the trim - with a self-tailer, by the time he got it loose he'd have to trim it in again! Or the helmsman would have to steer a wavy course to maintain best trim! Unfortunately, there are no automatic transmissions on a racing C25 <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> If I only cruised I think they might help.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 13:32:52

Derek,

I'm not saying one is better than the other or that self-tailers are an item you must have.
I'm just saying you make the adjustments to the equipment you are set up with.
Brad, our genoa trimmer has got his stuff together on the self-tailers and does a great job working with them.

The reason we added the 2 self-tailers above the coaming, we wanted them to match the factory installed ones. These winches don’t get used during a race we use the cabin top winches.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 13:54:44

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If you race in shifty winds, the genoa trimmer is constantly adjusting the trim - with a self-tailer, by the time he got it loose he'd have to trim it in again! Or the helmsman would have to steer a wavy course to maintain best trim! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The fact that you have self tailing winches doesn't mean that you have to use the self tailing feature all the time. If you are on a reach and sailing the rhumb line to the next mark, and you want your crew to play the sheets in and out to maintain the highest speed along the rhumb line, then you can have him remove the sheet from the self tailer, put another wrap or two around the winch so it doesn't pull so hard, and have your crew play the sail. That way, your crew won't have to be repeatedly setting the sheet in the self tailer and removing it. In other words, just play your jib sheets the same way you would if you didn't have self tailing winches.

If, on the other hand, you are beating to windward, and you don't intend to play the sail, then just set the sheet in the self tailer.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

cclark
Navigator

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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 14:47:03

I have to put my 2 cents in here for tailers. You know, those little blue rubber things you put on your winch to act sort of like a self-tailer. I know these were discussed a few months ago, and the general consensus was that they weren't too useful. At the time I had just purchased a pair and hadn't had much experience with them.
Since then, I have come to like them quite a bit. As a single handing (wife is also 7 months pregnant) cruiser, I like the added grip they afford. No, they aren't as good as true self-tailers, but they are also only $40 a pair.
Chris

"Ora Serrata" '83 SK/TR #3749

Edited by - cclark on 07/18/2003 14:48:55

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 15:38:40

Every racing boat I've ever been on has self-tailers, and I think they're great! My crew is not too swift with the cam cleats, and I think a pair of self tailers would be a huge improvement. Unfortunately, they cost a fortune. I'm looking for a pair on Ebay.

Bruce Baker
Falls Church, VA
"Yee Ha" 3573
'83SR/SK

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 15:52:51

at $500-$800 a pop, pretty low on the list.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo_web.jpg" border=0>

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 18:49:11

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
When I bought my boat new, in 1981, I bought 2 speed winches . . . They give you two different speeds of mechanical advantage . . . in actual use, they make it much easier to tack and trim the jib.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Because of the narrowness of our inland lake and its prevailing winds we are forced to sail close hauled (cranked in real tight) much of the time. After an afternoon of this, I'm exhausted <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> . I'd settle for the mechanical advantage of 2-speed winches over self-tailers. Sailing on larger open bodies of water . . . I'd probably choose self-tailers or even stay with what I have.

Edited by - on

Ellis Bloomfield
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2003 : 13:52:53

[quote]
Funny how we learn (basic) things by accident. <img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>
The last time I sailed my boat, I realized I could pull on the sheet forward of the winch (getting some "purchase" ?) and then the other hand to trim the jib sheet without having to use my winch handle.

Cap'n Dave,
If you are singlehanding you can expand on this by taking a couple of wraps around the winch and then leading the line over to the lazy side and around a cleat. You then pull (or swig) the line between the winches and take up the slack around the cleat. The winch rachet holds the line tight while you take up the slack. (There is an article in "Good Old Boat" about this in the March issue. You can get more power this way than with the winch handle and do it all without moving across the cockpit. I usually don't tie off around the cleat so adjustment out is quick and easy. It works great but doesn't look as impressive as winding on the handle. Also it doesn't work well with a crew because of the line across the cockpit.
Ellis

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