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to Flemish, or not to Flemish

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/26/2003 : 16:06:58

Hi folks
Once again I'll admit to my ignorance.
I was just reading today in Practical Sailor where it was said that you shouldn't Flemish your dock lines. That's the first I have heard of that. I always thought that you Flemish your lines so they could dry out, unroll neatly, and look really cool.
What say ye experienced ones, OB1. (or is it grasshopper)

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2003 : 17:49:39

What's the alternative?

Safe voyages,
Ben, FL s/v Chick-a-pea C250wk
<img src="http://www.members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/fullsail.jpg" border=0>

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John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2003 : 18:36:18

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Once again I'll admit to my ignorance.
I was just reading today in Practical Sailor where it was said that you shouldn't Flemish your dock lines. That's the first I have heard of that. I always thought that you Flemish your lines so they could dry out, unroll neatly, and look really cool.
What say ye experienced ones, OB1. (or is it grasshopper)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
 You knew more than me!<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> I had never heard “Flemish” used to describe flat coiling a line.
I found the following definition at [url="http://www.angelfire.com/biz/blueflag/page5f.html"]BLUE FLAG SAILORS-SAILING ACADEMY [/url] in the glossary. Scroll down to "Flemish".

“FLEMISH COILS
Coiling lines into concentric circles on the Deck so that the coils
remain flat, neat, and solid. To "Flemish" the Lines is a sign of
good seamanship because coiling the Lines preserves the life of the
Running Rigging by allowing the Lines to dry evenly and reduce the
tendency to Foul. “

I “Flemish” my traveler lines because there is no place to store them neatly BUT “Flemished” lines also collect dirt and leave dirty rings where the lines sit. I prefer to coil and tie up my ines so they hang and don’t lay on the deck.
Why did PS say not to Flemish the dock lines?

Underlined words are a HOT link.
Click on the “Peregrine” icon.
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2003 : 18:47:40

Well at least Flemish sounds better anal retentive . . . <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2003 : 10:37:44

One of the instructors in a captains course I had taken maintains that one should ,"kick Flemished lines off the dock". Now I don't Flemish lines but would like to come across the dude who thinks it his right to flip my Flemished lines into the drink. One of us would likely soon follow. His rights begin where the outer coil of a Flemished line ends.(HUH?)

Val on Calista # 3936

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2003 : 10:56:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
One of the instructors in a captains course I had taken maintains that one should ,"kick Flemished lines off the dock".
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

When casting off, this same instructor probably throws his dock lines onto the middle of the dock for others to trip over . . . <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2003 : 18:22:33

I Flemish my dock line tails. I Flemish my running rigging tails also. If a person is taking enough time to tidy up his lines to look fancy it says something about the type of sailor he is. For those who would kick them into the drink I say this. Just dont let me catch you or you Will follow.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2003 : 19:31:10

I flemish my dockline tails, too and every once in a while I'll find them dangling off the dock in the drink. When this occurs, I simply recoil the lines neatly and pray that I'm present the next time someone decides to touch my gear because I would love to tell him personally and politely to...KEEP HIS *&!#ING HANDS OFF MY LINES!<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2003 : 20:59:08

Whew--this is getting scary! From now on, I think I'll just cleat my docklines and throw the tails right into the drink! That way, if some Cigarette driver with a goatee and tattoos walks by, I won't have to kick his ass... <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 12:28:58

I think this topic does touch a nerve. I also think it's about respect. Respect for both other peoples property and respect for your own. I would never dream of touching someone's dock lines unless it were to secure a wayward boat. I respect others opinions and I would expect the same in return.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 13:34:59

I think Doug/Ruth's second post expresses my sentiments exactly, it's about respecting the others space. I'm at that point in my life in which a punch to the other person would likely hurt me more than him. I do agree, however, that that instructors general demeanor warranted a good WHACKO upside the head. The boorishness of the attacts on sailboaters in general throughout the course was relentless and the business about the Flemished lines only spoke to the selfcenteredness of the individual that I referred to initially. I wish I hadn't, didn't mean to stirr up such concern.

Val on Calista # 3936

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 15:24:48

I don't flemish my lines, even tho' I try to keep the boat neat and tidy. Running rigging I "coil" the lines and fasten them to the wall of the cabin with small shock cords. Dack line I tie continuous half hitchs until all the line is used up. No one can kick the lines in the wate, as there are no lines to kick!

Club would prefer bowlines or schackeles, but then there is extra line and I suppose the seaman like way to handle them would be to flemish the lines.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 15:50:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Dock line I tie continuous half hitchs until all the line is used up<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

It seems a lot of people do that (and/or wrap the tail around and around). However, local boating rags occasionally publish letters written by the Coast Guard which recommend against -- it takes a lot longer for them/harbor patrol/firemen to untie/cut the lines when they need to move boats in a hurry during fire or extreme weather situations.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 16:14:03

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I wish I hadn't, didn't mean to stirr up such concern.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Heck Val, my life has been rather uneventful lately . . . I needed a shot of adrenalin <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> !

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Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 17:30:46

One of the first personal touches I put on my C-25 4 years ago, was to custom fit dock lines to my boat and slip. It was a bit of work initially, but now I've got splicing pretty well figured out. The boat has been in some pretty big storms ( 30mph+ winds ) in the slip and after 4 years the dock lines are just now showing signs of wear. With the spliced dock lines having loops that just fit over the horn cleats, there is no need to Flemish a line.This cuts way back on the excitement mentioned in previous posts, but we all know that sailing is full of compromises. Fair winds. Todd Frye

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 17:53:10

If there's a substantial tail on my dockline, I toss it back on board--sometimes it becomes a spring line. I wouldn't continue putting hitches on the cleat, especially if it was a cleat another boater might use also (as on a transient dock). Like Don, I coil and hang running rigging--the mainsheet hangs in a coil from the tiller that's lashed to the backstay. My mains'l dousing line is coiled and hangs from the rope clutch. Genoa sheets are coiled and made to the lifelines.

What pisses me off are the guys who use my hose (that's fine) and leave it in a pile on the dock (nozzle hanging in the drink) with the high-pressure water on! <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> And no, they're not sailors.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 07/28/2003 17:55:36

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 19:35:22

Val Im rather glad you did post. I think this is a good topic and the posts have shown it to be so. Im not overly upset. Just pause to think about how many types of personalities there are out there.

Dave with regards to your hose. My boat is in a slip right next to the launch sling and kaiyak(spelling help) launch area. My hose was constantly wandering away or being used. I solved the problem by putting on special quick disconect fittings that only work with its mate part. I remove the nozzel and if they remove the hose it wont work anywhere unless they have the other fittings. My hose hasn't been bothered since. After all the people who were taking it or using it were to lazy to get there own. They won't touch it now because there to lazy or to cheap to go and purchase the fittings. Go figure

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 19:48:19

Splicing the dock lines.

One of these days I'll learn how to splice.

I need some old salt to sit me down and teach me how to do that.

I have my boat slipped at a sailing club, where everyone has a great deal of respect for each other. I'll be spoiled for life.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 20:09:27

Do folks who moor their boats sail trouble free?

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 21:06:38

Went sailing this spring with five other guys, four boats altogether. The three other skippers had spent many, many years working on boats......big ones, as in cruise ship big. When we got into port and we all walked by my Flemished dock lines on the way to dinner, I was the brunt of an industrial dose of jocularity.........So, I'm a yachtie.....I thinks it looks nice. Plus, my ten year old daughter does a nice job at it....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

As far as learning to splice. There's a plethora of books on the subject, many of them simple with pictures and colors.......easy to follow. They're on the shelf at your local West Marine/Boat US. Three strand splicing that is. I got the tool to splice braided....with the instructions in 27 "easy steps"....that's a whole different ball game. I'll find the time to do that one of these day's.....

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 07/28/2003 21:11:35

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 21:41:03

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...I got the tool to splice braided....with the instructions in 27 "easy steps"....that's a whole different ball game. I'll find the time to do that one of these day's.....
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
A rigger I know demonstrated a braided splice one day--he did one in about 45 seconds (including the narrative)--I have no idea how! He does them professionally for the US Navy and the Coast Guard in his spare time. Gets paid some obscene amount for each splice, considering how much time he spends. But hey--a good splice will keep a boat from being smashed up in a storm!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 08:57:13

I like to flemish my dock lines too, but I have noticed that the lines
seem to get stiff in that circular way.
I wonder if that stiffness is what Practical Sailor thought was detrimental to the lines.
And if so, how would that stiffness hurt the dockline?

Another point ... when flemishing (coiling) the line, a rough dock seems to snag the line. Maybe the roughness would damage or break the fibers of the outside of the dock line.

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 09:46:30

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Do folks who moor their boats sail trouble free?

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Mark, every way of storing a boat has advantages and disadvantages. the best way for an individual sailor is a matter of choice. Mooring has a problem of getting to the boat, needing either a dink or a launch service to take you out and bring you back in. Allso you have to worry about the chaffing of you mooring pennents. For me a dock ios heck of a lot more convienent, especially if the hassles don't bother you.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 12:48:30

For strength, the splice is superior to a knot. It really is satisfying to “create” part of your gear and be able to rely on it. Dock lines can be spliced while sitting in front of the tube, watching football or? Kind of like a guys answer to knitting. Here’s a few knot sites to get you going. Good luck. Todd Frye

http://www.neropes.com/splice/main.htm

http://131.230.57.1/knots.html

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 14:10:45

Excerpt from Cruising world

Coiling: Three-strand rope has a unidirectional lay, usually right-handed, so it has to be coiled in one direction, the direction of the lay. Braided rope is balanced, and it's effectively made up of both right- and left-handed lays. Coil it, therefore, in figure eights to prevent it from hockling or kinking. Unwind lines from winches; don't just lift the tail and let the turns spin up and off, or you'll get hockles. To remove hockles, trail the line behind the boat. The worst thing you can do with braided line, whether sheet tails, halyard tails, or mooring lines, is wind it up into circular mats or Flemish coils.

The entire article brings up some interesting points...
http://www.cruisingworld.com/cw_article.php?articleID=1097

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 14:24:31

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The worst thing you can do with braided line, whether sheet tails, halyard tails, or mooring lines, is wind it up into circular mats or Flemish coils.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Of course, he doesn't specify why it is the worst thing, so that each individual can make a personal evaluation. A good read, however. I suspect that this, like so many issues, has a different level of criticality for different individuals and for different applications (i.e., ocean passage-maker, racer, cruiser, daysailer). Thanks for sharing, Duane. I, for one, will continue to Flemish.

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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