Association Forum - Standing Rigging Tuning

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Standing Rigging Tuning

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Bruce Ebling
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
155 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/28/2003 : 19:13:35

I am familiar with how to tune the mast on a standard C25. The new boat that I just splashed has roller furling installed. I was told that the backstay needed a lot more tension to keep the furler from sagging too much. I did tighten the backstay further, but ended up with approximatley 4" of mast bend (forward of course). It looks like too much bend in the mast. Today I might try to loosen the lower forwards and tighten the lower aft stays to try to straighten the mast somewhat. Can anyone give me some advice on what tuning strategy they use??? Thanks so much for all of the advice I have gotten on this forum, it is great since I have no one to talk to about catalinas here in Eugene.
Bruce Ebling
89 C25 "Selah"

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 19:51:40

Hey Bruce,
Glad to see you got your new boat in the water. Good question about tuning. I can't wait to see the answers.
I feel like I have something invested in your boat since I helped you find it. Or am I to blame?

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Bruce Ebling
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 00:16:14

Frank: I also feel a kinship to you, without you I would not be in the fix/predicament/cool boat that I am in :-) The boat looked sooo good in the photos, but alas it needs tons of work. On the other hand she is really starting to shine. I plan on replacing all of the standing rigging and a new rub rail as well. It seems like everything I try to use is broken or needs tlc. But hey its an 89 wing! what more can I say. It was in the mid 90's today so we took her out for a short motor and swim, we also installed the dodger and re-tuned the rigging to more of my liking. "Selah" is looking better and better each day. Oh yes and the trailer, well after bringing the boat home (900+miles) I blew a wheel bearing out on the way to the lake! The trailer will also need some sandblasting and metal repair to be in top shape. As soon as things settle down a bit I will post some photos of the boat. BTW I would love to hear how your boat is coming along. Anyway Frank, thanks to you and the forum I am knee deep in boat parts and loving it!
Bruce Ebling
89 WK
"Selah"

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 09:24:07

Hi Bruce,

Depending upon how "tired" your mainsail is, 4" of mast bend might be OK. I tune Snickerdoodle's mast with 2" to 3" of pre-bend by tightening the forward lowers more than the aft lowers. This gives me better windward performance.

So, 4" doesn't sound bad to me....especially if the mainsail is the original 4.5 oz stock sail from Catalina. Those sails were cut pretty full when brand new. And, 4.5 oz dacron will start loosing its shape pretty fast if sailed in anything above 15 knots of breeze.

Your idea of tightening the aft lowers to straighten the mast is correct though. Watch the relative tensions on the whole rig as you do this. You will still want the upper shrouds as well as the forestay and back stay to have more tension than any of the lower shrouds.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 16:13:17

Bill,
I went out and bought another Loos Gague, as the catalina 25 requires two, but alas, I can't find any information on what the proper tensions would be. North Sails published a tuning guide to the Catalina 22, but don't have one for the 25.
Do you use a gague, if so, which one, and what are your settings.
Thanks

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Bruce Ebling
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 21:26:39

The mainsail I have is a Hood brand made from what feels like a heavier cloth than I am using, it is fully battened and has double reefs. My guess is that it was used to sail offshore in the L.A. area. I have a Loos guage as well, I will tell you what, I will go out to the boat this week and record the readings I have. Maybe that will give us some sort of comparison to what others are using. I am still curious whether you use more tension on the forestay/backstay when using roller furling. Let me know if there are other ideas that we can kick around as far as tuning goes. On another note my hull number is #5984, which according to the production numbers posted is near the end of the run for C25 Mk IV's
Bruce
1989 WK
"Selah"

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 12:21:03

Hi Frank,

I don't use any kind of gauge for tuning the rig. I personally like my shrouds and stays tight. And, my personal preference is to look at the mast (kerf for "S" and "C" curves; and from the side for pre-bend and rake). So, I'd say my method is very much "hands on".

BTW: the gauges record different numbers depending upon temperature. As the temp rises, the rig gets looser. As the temp falls, the rig gets tighter. That's why I tune my rig three times a year - spring, summer and fall.....but - for me - it's all by feel.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 13:37:57

Like Bill, I also don't use a Loos gauge. I tune the rig so that it performs the way I want it to perform. Each stay has a specific purpose to support the mast in a certain way and from a certain direction, and each stay should be adjusted with the tension necessary for it to perform its assigned task. The rigs of boats with fixed backstays and adjustable backstays should be adjusted differently.

When the boat is in its slip, as well as when it is under sail and the rig is under stress, the mast should have a certain shape and each stay should behave in a certain way. I tune the stays so that they will behave as they should, and then test-sail it to make sure that it does.

When the boat is under sail, you can look at the leeward stays and see if they are waving in the breeze, or if they are still under very slight tension, as they should be. If they are all swaying in the breeze, and, if the boat has a fixed backstay, then you should tighten the turnbuckles on each side of the boat by an equal number of turns, just until the slack is adjusted out of the leeward stays (assuming the mast is otherwise erect and straight). Be careful that you do not over-tighten the stays.

If the stays behave the way they are supposed to behave, then you know the tension of the stays will be correct.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 18:46:54

Steve and Bill,
I still am a relative newbie with sailing, so having a Loos gague to tension my shrouds is a good learning tool. I did that with my 22 and soon got the "feel" of it.

I'm always trying to learn as much as I can about the technically correct ways of doing things. It's kind of fun, and I like learning new stuff. By the way, I have two BS degrees and one masters. So I am well versed in BS

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 01:22:11

Frank,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I went out and bought another Loos Gague, as the catalina 25 requires two, but alas, I can't find any information on what the proper tensions would be. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That's the problem with tuning by using a Loos gauge. I've never found any reliable standards for the "correct" amount of Loos gauge tension for a Catalina 25. Derek Crawford uses a Loos gauge on his tall rig boat with hank on sails and an adjustable backstay, and in the past he has provided his tensions via this forum, but that's just his opinion. With all due respect to Derek, he could be wrong. I don't know of any really knowledgeable person who has looked at Derek's rig and confirmed that Derek's rig is set up correctly. He and I have discussed rig tuning in the past, and I believe we have some differences of opinion on the subject. Moreover, his figures would only apply, for sure, to an identical boat rigged the same way, and set up for racing. Also, if you don't set up the rig correctly in the first place, you could adjust the stays to all the recommended tensions and still not have it right. There's more to tuning a rig than merely adjusting the stays to certain specified tensions.

But, while there are no generally accepted and authoritative standards for tuning a C-25 rig with a Loos gauge, there are generally accepted principles for tuning a rig by taking measurements and by using your senses of sight and touch. You take measurements to determine if the mast is erect, or if it is leaning to one side or the other. You use your eyes to sight up the mast and see if it is straight. Your eyes can also tell you whether one stay is taut when the one on the opposite side is slack. Your sense of touch will help tell you the same thing.

If the stays all look the way they are supposed to look, and if they behave under load the way they are supposed to behave, I couldn't care less what a Loos gauge says.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Steve and Bill,...By the way, I have two BS degrees and one masters. So I am well versed in BS.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Bill Holcomb is one of the four or five most knowledgeable members of the forum, and he is giving you good, solid information. It wouldn't hurt you to give a little more thought to my suggestions, too. Neither Bill nor I are newbies.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/31/2003 04:51:17

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 10:26:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Do you use a gague, if so, which one, and what are your settings.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Frank,

I've had great results with the Loos gauges.

But, there are two models, standard and professional, and they have different tension numbers.

Which set do you have?

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 10:41:55

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>By the way, I have two BS degrees and one masters. So I am well versed in BS.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Bill Holcomb is one of the four or five most knowledgeable members of the forum, and he is giving you good, solid information. It wouldn't hurt you to give a little more thought to my suggestions, too. Neither Bill nor I are newbies.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Steve! You must be overdue for another dose... Go get it, and lighten up! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> He was funnin' all of us.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 13:58:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Steve! You must be overdue for another dose... Go get it, and lighten up! He was funnin' all of us.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I guess I didn't understand that he was funnin' because he didn't stick a smiley face on it. I lightened up at 4:51 this morning, when I got out of bed and edited my original post.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 19:02:24

Hey Steve,
I wasn't dissing you at all, and I apologize if it seemed that way.

I was just making a point that I do like to be technically proficient in all that I do, whether it is sailing, anesthesia, or the proper care of a deck wench. Some folks think I'm really full of BS.

I do value your input, and have learned some stuff from you, Bill, and other listers.

I don't know how to do a smiley face.

I have the Standard Loos gagues, nothing Professional about my sailing at all

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Bruce Ebling
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 19:29:17

I agree with what Steve is saying about tuning. I believe that the "numbers" that the loos guage reads is only a tool to see that the shrouds are evenly tensioned. They are not intended to be use to set the actual tension with, they are only a tool so that all of the rigging tension is balanced from side to side.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 20:40:43

Thanks, Frank. When I was young, I never dreamed that I would end up old and crotchety. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Steve

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Shawn
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2003 : 22:51:24

I sailed on a Cal 227 yesterday. I helped deliver the boat from St. John to Virgin Gorda for its usual hurricane season haul out. This boat consistantly shows me it's backside in races, as it probably should. But, she is also a very respected boat in this area, she is always in the front of the fleet in races. Whether it is our local wed. night series or the C.O.R.T. series. It was very interesting and educational to sail aboard her.
Anyway, the point is. Their rig was very, very loose. The leeward shrouds and spreader were flapping like I couldn't beleive. So, risking looking like a complete idiot, I asked about it. They said this is one of their secrets to success. It allows for more sail shaping for various conditions. Their mast is similar to ours on a C-25, not designed to bend much. But they are able to move the mast head itself back and forth a lot. I don't really understand what the side stays (what I noticed and questioned) have to do with this. They only have one set of lowers, in line with the uppers. Unlike ours with a fore and aft lower shroud. They have owned and sailed this boat since she was new in 1978. In that time they have raced against several C-25's and C27's. They said the Catalina owners they have known tell them that after a certain point the Catalina shrouds stop tuning the mast and start tuning the deck. What I got from that was, go fairly loose and use the backstay adjuster and the halyards to tune for different conditions.
This was just their opinion, but they are very knowledgable folks. Although on a different boat with a different rig than ours. I have been following the advice of Bill H. given on this site, and I like it. I wonder what running things very loose would do for me (or to me) though.
Looking forward to any opinions.
By the way, my question was treated with a lot of respect, and their philosophies of what makes a boat perform were given with no attitude or pretense. One more credit to the fine people who sail.

Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2003 : 08:56:50

Hey Shawn,
Thanks for the good story.
By the way, do you know a friend of mine in St. John's. His name is Dave Dostall, and he owns the 65 foot wood boat "Rob Roy"?
He has invited me down to crew for him, he especially mentioned Antigua race week.
What do you think?
Thanks

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Shawn
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2003 : 22:09:59

Frank,
I know Dave very well. He is the plumbing contractor on all of the houses I build. He also took the video at my wedding back in '95. he is a great guy as well as a knowledgable sailor. The Rob Roy crew is legendary at Antigua Classics. They are a very tight knit group. They are known as the Rob Roy Family.
If there is any way you can work it out, take him up on his offer. Rob Roy is one of the prettiest boats in this area where we have a lot of classics.
He is nearing the end of a major overhaul on her. He has repaired some of the planking damaged in a collision that ocurred last time he was in Antigua. The other boat was at fault. He has also re built the entire cockpit along with several other projects to numerous for me to tell you about, but I'm sure he would love to talk to you about them. Also if you find yourself in our neighborhood, I would like to have you sail with me. I would be very interested in any advice another C-25 sailor would be willing to share.
Hope to meet you in person in the near future. Until then, fair winds.
Shawn

Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2003 : 23:50:29

Shawn, I think the guy with the Cal 227 is part right and part wrong.

There is a limit to what can be accomplished through rig tuning. The purpose of the mast and rig is to give you a structure on which to hang your sails. If you don’t have a backstay adjuster, then the objective of rig tuning is simply to hold the mast erect, straight, and secure, and to adjust the amount of weather helm. If you don’t have a backstay adjuster, you shape the sails by using traditional sail-shaping devices (adjusting halyard and sheet tensions, vang, outhaul, cunningham, etc.) .

If you have a backstay adjuster, then the objective of rig tuning is not only to hold the mast erect, straight, and secure, and to adjust the amount of weather helm, but it is also to enable you to adjust the rig, on the fly, from a very loose adjustment, which is used for more power when sailing off the wind, to a very tight adjustment, which is used when sailing to windward. But, on the C-25, the only stays that should ever be loose are the headstay and the aft lowers. The headstay should be taut when beating to windward, and it should become very loose when running downwind. Changing the tension of the headstay is what changes the shape of the jib and mainsail. When you increase the tension of the headstay, you make it taut and you bend the mast. Because the jib is attached to the headstay, making it taut or loose changes the shape of the jib. Because the mainsail is attached to the mast, bending and unbending the mast changes the shape of the mainsail. Looseness in the leeward stays doesn’t change the shape of either the mast or the sail. The only thing that looseness in the leeward stays accomplishes is to create a risk of a dismasting, depending on how loose they are. There is nothing to be gained by letting your whole mast flop loosely from one side to the other each time you tack. It doesn’t have any effect on the shape of either sail.

The backstay adjuster enables you to very quickly flatten both your jib and mainsail for windward work, and to induce deep pockets into both your jib and mainsail for sailing off the wind. When you are reaching, you can adjust the backstay somewhere in between full-on and full-off, to shape your sails for maximum speed and power.

Being able to adjust the headstay of the Cal 227 from taut to loose makes it faster. Having looseness in the leeward stays serves no useful purpose.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2003 : 07:46:44

Hey Steve,
Great explaination. Thanks. I just bought Don Guilette's book and chart on sail trim, and it is also very good. Did you write some of his book for him?
One of these day's I'll learn all this stuff, and then there will be more stuff to learn, isn't it great?
Not like a bass boat at all

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 11:50:37

Steve: I talked Derek Crawford into flying out to Washington to do the Six Pac, a series of long races on the Columbia River. He brought his Loos gauge and retuned my SK/SR by loosening her up quite a bit. We have heavy air out here often, so he didn't go nearly as loose as on his boat, This Side Up. What I know is that in the beercan race that Friday night, the only boat to beat us to the weather mark was a Melges 24. We beat a number of fast racers to the weather mark, and beat everybody in our class over the course (15 boats total-we were 5th with only a Melges, J-30, J-24, Evelyn 33 ahead of us). I only have an asymetric chute, but we got a reach rather than a run. I was tickled with how she moved in the 10 knots or so we had.

In the Six Pac, it seemed like Encore! was faster than she has ever been in lighter conditions, i.e. fewer than 10 knots. Over that, we tended to get a bit overpowered and couldn't point competitively with a reef in the main. Still finished second in our fleet of seven boats....sailing level with them. We had the highest handicap (slowest boat, potentially) and had to beat them boat for boat. We raced level with boats racing with 210 PHRF and over. We rate 247 with the cruising chute, the slowest in the fleet. Overall....I learned a lot from Derek about sail trim, tuning, and match racing techniques. I think he experienced some new things as well, such as racing in 3+ knots of current and 20+ knots of wind. We saw 8.4 knots on the knotmeter while broad reaching under the chute on the final leg. We caught and passed the Cal 34 we HAD to beat to finish second in the week-long regatta. Derek is still here, as a relative of his was in a car accident nearby and is in ICU in Portland. That is why he hasn't spoken up yet on this issue.

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 16:14:31

Oh, Man! I knew the Six Pac was coming up soon, and was dying to hear how you guys did! I knew you and Derek were going to do well, and that you guys were going to trade some good racing tips back and forth between you.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> In the Six Pac, it seemed like Encore! was faster than she has ever been in lighter conditions, i.e. fewer than 10 knots.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That’s where the loose rig makes the biggest difference---in light air, when sailing off the wind. It lets you make the sails much more powerful, by making only one adjustment. Derek knows how to make it fast.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>We had the highest handicap (slowest boat, potentially) and had to beat them boat for boat. We raced level with boats racing with 210 PHRF and over. We rate 247 with the cruising chute, the slowest in the fleet.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Don’t you just loooove whuppin’ on those high-tech racin’-type boats with a little ole Catalina cruiser!

Congratulations on your great results! Please tell Derek I hope his relative recovers quickly, and that all goes well for him.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Bruce Ebling
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 19:03:17

Thanks everyone for a very informative discussion on tuning. I may be slow on the uptake, but I am still confused on whether having roller furling (which puts lots more weight on the forestay) changes the way you tension the fore and back stays. I was told not to leave the furler too loose or it can flop in the wind.
Bruce Ebling
89 WK
"Selah"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 19:38:19

Bruce, I've never owned a roller furler, so I was waiting for one of our furling friends to answer your question, but since they haven't, I'll give an uninformed opinion, for what it's worth.

I've never seen a furler with a really taut headstay. However, if it is too loose (i.e., if there is too much slack in the headstay) the boat won't point as high as it should. Therefore, I think you should adjust the headstay so that it is just slightly less than taut.

Walk down the docks and look at furlers on other boats of about the same size. Tug on their headstays and try to get an idea of how far it deflects when you pull on it. Then adjust yours so that it deflects about the same.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Bruce Ebling
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 22:09:31

Thanks Steve! Actually that is where the whole question started. I had just rigged the boat when another sailor came by and I asked his opinion about the tune on the headstay, he told me that you need to add quite a bit more tension to the rig to keep the furler somewhat taught. I have seen sails come undone in a blow when the furler is too loose, it will start ocillating and come undone. I did check the tension in comparison to other boats and I seem to be in the ballpark, but from what I am normally used to, it has several turns more of tension on the backstay.
Bruce Ebling

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.