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Inboard for a C25??

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lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/29/2003 : 16:14:19

I may be pipe dreaming again, but....anyone ever fathom a inboard installation in a C25?? Seems to me the boat's weakest link is the outboard. Hmmmm...

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jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 16:46:59

You may find that an inboard option existed if you check the Catalina 25 history. "Texas Tango" has an unused cockpit control lever assembly starboard toward the stern. An old parts list from Catalina Yachts included an engine panel, shift cable, throttle cable, prop strut, shaft log, prop shaft, prop shaft key, exhaust manifold, exhaust flap, anti-siphon valve, fuel filter, fuel tank, etc. You will find none of these items in the Catalina Direct catalog.

Perhaps an inboard engine option could explain the abundant size of the cockpit locker. A gasoline inboard is a really bad idea on a sailboat. At my size, access to an inboard engine via the quarterberth area would make any engine a real challenge. I would consider any 7-9.9 hp outboard a better deal than an inboard on the Catalina 25.

John
C25 3973 FK/SR
"Texas Tango"

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 21:12:20

John: You are right. A few C25 fin keel sailboats were manufactured with inboards. I have seen the advertised for sale. I don't know whether they were gas or diesel, but I think the latter. I assume they were saildrives, but again, I am not sure. Bill Holcombe would know, though.

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jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 21:45:17

A "fuel system illustration" in an old owners' manual page 44 show the engine just under the companionway steps. The fuel lines lead forward to the bow locker under the V-bert where I stow my headsails. This includes a vent hose, fill hose and fuel fill plate port side above the head. The drawing shws the fuel gauge and engine panel deatils. The engine exhaust illustration shows the engine slanting down toward the stern.
<img src="c:documents and settingsasummerfieldmy documentsmy picturesjul 2003scan0001.jpg" border=0>

<img src="c:documents and settingsasummerfieldmy documentsmy picturesjul 2003scan0002.jpg" border=0>

John
C25 3973 FK/SR
"Texas Tango"

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 22:18:31

Approximately 50 Catalina 25 "Mark IV"'s were built with inboard diesels of 10 or 12 hp. These were 2 cylinder Universal (Kubota) engines with regular transmissions and a prop shaft, not Sail Drives. The inboard diesel Sail Drive is an option currently available on the Catalina 250; that's probably what you were thinking of.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 22:51:11

There is a 1979 C25 at my marina that has an inboard diesel engine, but it appears to be a retrofit and not original.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 07:51:40

I think an inboard deisel of 10 hp or so would make my C25 the perfect boat. But I guess it would be less costly (and alot easier) to find a C27 inboard. Thanks for the information though.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 10:20:41

Would be nice if Honda and/or Yamaha came out with a nice 9.9 hp 'saildrive' unit?

I suppose there's not enough demand to warrant it though.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 11:30:13

Reasons I wouldn't want an inboard on my C25...

Manuerability - Being a 25ft boat, I am docked in a 25ft slip. When backing out of my slip, I have one boat length before hitting the boats berthed in the slips behind me. Additionally, I share my slip with another boat so I have to come out relatively straight to prevent my bow from hitting the other boat's stern. This means that I have to back out somewhat straight and when I get close to the boats behind me and my bow has cleared the boat next to me, I throw my outboard tiller hard over to port and give it a good rev to both stop my rearward progress and to kick the stern to port. An inboard, with it's inability for directional thrust, would not allow me to make that stop-and-turn quite so easily.

Seaweed - At certain times of the season, seaweed becomes a minor annoyance in my area with it's ability to wrap itself around keels, rudders, and props. When my outboard prop becomes fouled with seaweed I can lift and tilt it out of the water and simply lean over to pull it off or use the boathook. With an inboard, this endeavor becomes somewhat trickier.

Space - Being a C25, space on my boat is at a premium and as it stands I've shoehorned all I can into the aft berth area. An inboard would take up valuable room that is needed on our small boats.

Noise - Now to be fair I've only been on one inboard powered sailboat(a C25 diesel), but I couldn't beleive how much noise was generated below decks when it was running. Additionally, and this could be due to an unbalanced shaft, the whole boat shuddered when it was above idle speed.

Maintenance - Just two weeks ago a 25ft sailboat across from me with an inboard and saildrive needed to replace his water pump. It cost him more to have the boat hauled than it did for the new water pump. Also, it is a lot easier to remove an outboard to work on it than trying to work on an inboard shoehorned behind the companionway ladder beneath the cockpit sole.

Now an inboard would be the ideal choice on larger more cruiser friendly boats, but it's a bit much for a smaller, less roomier weekender type boat like the C25.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 11:59:24

Hi Lance,

Right from the begining of production the C25 was offered with a great many options that could be installed at the factory. As many as 45 or 50 individual options were considered with every C25 ordered. One option was an inboard engine. I don't remember if an Atomic 4 ever was an option, but certainly Universal diesel engines and OMC saildrive units were.

In 1987 for example, a 2-cylinder Universal Model 12 (10 hp), factory installed with controls - complete, added $3,985 to the retail price of a C25.

But, due to competition, most dealers would only order a C25 with the inboard option if they had a customer already who was ordering the boat with the inboard. Otherwise, the less expensive outboard was preferred.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 21:29:02

Don- I agree with everything you say except with reference to maneuverability. I find my C25 with its outboard infinitely more tricky to move in and out of slips than an inboard. Leaning over the transom to handle the tiller/twist handle of the motor while trying to spot one's position, especially when sailing solo, is a challenge. On an inboard the prop wash hits the rudder almost instantly, so the boat will swing much more quickly than is the case with an outboard. Also you have only one tiller or the wheel to worry about, and maneuvering can be accomplished standing up.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 22:29:08

Dave,

I have to say that I've never operated a sailboat with an inboard, but with respect to manueverability, I can't imagine any motor configuration being any easier to operate than my outboard with the integrated throttle/shift tiller handle.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Leaning over the transom to handle the tiller/twist handle of the motor while trying to spot one's position, especially when sailing solo, is a challenge.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I solo almost daily and some days I enter/leave port multiple times during the day so I get plenty of practice around the docks and I find my outboard tiller handle to be at a very natural and comfortable position. For additional manuerability I use both tillers simultanaeously(one in each hand) and again find this to be easy and natural. I've singlehandedly docked so much that I could probably do it blindfolded. When I have people on board and they asked if they can help, I thank them for their offer, but respectfully decline because I have a docking system/routine and anything that interferes with that is distracting to me.

I find the C25 with a tiller operated outboard acts the same(albeit much heavier) as the 16-18ft aluminum fishing boats I raced around on in my youth at the family cottage on an island in a river with a 4kt current. We kids used these boats as others would use bicyles, spending untold hours and gallons of gas out on the water. I find that the outboard powered C25 behaves pretty much like those old fishing boats.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 22:40:14

I'm definitely with Don on this one. I also solo exclusively, and use both tillers simultaneously for great manueverability. Additionally, I've docked friend's C30, Allied 32, and Shannon 38 - all with powerful inboards. The power and the prop wash completely outweigh the benefits of being able to stand up and see over the cabin top, IMNSHO. When docking Antares, I stand up, take my bearing, sit down, make the turn, stand up, check the bearing, adjust or shift into neutral, and I'm done. You cannot begin to imagine the number of times that I've seen my friends slide their sterns over into the dock. Whereas, I've not yet even touched a fender. (Sorry if that sounds like bragging.)

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 23:21:43

Well, I'm with Dave (and not because of his name)... Ignoring the advantages of an inboard in big seas and choppy inlets (which is hard to do), my experience is that the inboard sailboats I've handled have less prop-walk, and can just about turn on the axis of their keel due to the prop wash on the rudder. Of course, in reverse, that doesn't apply, since the prop-wash is toward the keel. The solution for backing is to get some way on so the rudder can do its thing.

That said, I bought the C-25 in small part because I wanted an outboard, avoiding the maintenance issues. But even with an extra-long shaft and a bracket that can put the prop deeper than the engine was designed for, I still hate the occasional cavitation. What is it they say about compromises?

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 23:27:08

You're right, Dave. I was thinking specifically about docking at slower speeds and thrusting in reverse. Although managing the outboard throttle and tiller while under way is not a drawback on the outboard, the limited amount of power certainly can be.

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 17:04:54

Just two weeks ago a 25ft sailboat across from me with an inboard and saildrive needed to replace his water pump. It cost him more to have the boat hauled than it did for the new water pump. Also, it is a lot easier to remove an outboard to work on it than trying to work on an inboard shoehorned behind the companionway ladder beneath the cockpit sole.

I don't quite understand. Do you mean that there is an outboard engine down through the hull behind the companion ladder? This is what my boat has, but I'm not sure that Catalina did this one. The work is terrible and the hole for the engine is below the waterline so that if the boot fails, the boat sinks. I also have seen that with this setup, on other boats, the cockpit floor is hatched to access the engine. On my boat, it looks as if you have to assemble the engine through the hole behind the companion way ladder. What a pain.
Ok I got this boat for the price of the trailer and even got a great deal on that. I planned from the start to glass this hole shut and hang the outboard off the transom as designed.

Dan
1977 sk/tr
# 29

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2003 : 20:58:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...Do you mean that there is an outboard engine down through the hull behind the companion ladder? This is what my boat has, but I'm not sure that Catalina did this one. The work is terrible and the hole for the engine is below the waterline so that if the boot fails, the boat sinks. I also have seen that with this setup, on other boats, the cockpit floor is hatched to access the engine....

I planned from the start to glass this hole shut and hang the outboard off the transom as designed.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Good idea, Dan! What you described really scares me! It's sort of a "sail drive" but apparently implemented with an ordinary outboard. I've never seen or heard of it.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 10:15:54

Hi Dave,

The outboard through the bottom of the boat idea was very popular during the late 70's and early 80's. OMC, in particular, used this configuration for their Saildrive system.

If I remember correctly, OMC used either their 35hp or their 25hp outboard engine (depending upon the horses you needed) and then de-tuned the engine. For 25 to 28 ft sailboats, I think the OMC Saildrive that was most commonly used was a 15hp version. It amounted to the 25hp engine with smaller carburator and intake manifold. Of course, it was a two cycle - so only weighed about 100 or 125 lbs.

The factory setup included a glassed in lip for securing the rubber gasket to the boat. This lip should have been "SOP" for home builders too. But some may have omitted a step.....or done it poorly

A friend of mine (who owns a Morgan 44 ketch) just rebuilt an ODay 25 that had this Saildrive system in it. He pulled the old engine out and glassed over the hole.....essentially repairing the bottom of the boat. Then added an outboard bracket and 8hp outboard. All "gussied" up now and for sail for around $8K.

You're right Dave. If the rubber gasket let go, it would sink the boat in no time. But then, lots of things can cause a boat to sink. This summer one of the scouts on the boat I was skippering left the saltwater selector on saltwater for the marine head during the night. This set up a syphon of seawater through the head and overflowed onto the head's flooring. By 8 the next morning when I wanted to take a shower, the teak floor grate was floating in 2.5" of water and this water was about to start flowing over the sill in the head....and onto the main cabin sole. If we had just gone ashore to explore for the day - - - well, who knows. I'll tell you what though, the floating grate got my attention in a hurry.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 15:04:42

Interesting, Bill... I've never seen an OMC Sail Drive from the inside, and was trying to picture what Dan was describing. I guess it's "normal"...

Thanks,

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 17:02:12

I like the method on the Columbia 26 which is right next to my slip (great boat - much more interior room than a Catalina 25 or 27).

The boat has an outboard well in the cockpit. The outboard sits under the tiller. The outboard is steerable, and it's thrust pushes on the rudder for even greater control. This is a square hole in the boat right down to the water, not the stern cutout like Catalina 27/outboards have.

Although the motor can't turn quite as much as ours on the stern bracket, there are a lot of advantages to this method. The motor is inboard. He lifts it up onto a 2x6 when not needed to get it out of the water. The weight is off the very end of the boat. It can't be swamped by following seas. The boat can't sink due to some gasket, fitting, or seal failing (like with an inboard). The controls of the motor are right at your fingertips when docking (as if you had remote controls in your Cat 25). This boat has the nice Tohatsu 8 HP 4 stroke. There is nothing hanging off the stern except the rudder. This leaves more room for a boarding ladder. The well is fiberglass and wood. The motor is a lot easier to work on in the water.

Downside of outboard well?

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 18:56:12

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Downside of outboard well?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Can he lift and/or tilt the motor to reduce drag while underway?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 20:43:24

I liked the well idea, too, until I had one: an O'day Tempest. Wonderful boat that sailed well, but always had the dang OB lower unit dragging. When heeled, the well would get water in which required a bilge pump (I finally inflated a small tractor tire inner tube around the OB lower unit!). When I went to a Honda 7.5 OB, I had to then pump in air or the engine would die from lack of oxygen......and of course the cooling water stream had to be led through the hull......Frankly, it became a pain, but it never cavitated, and with a custom wood transom, it looked really cool.

Out here on the Columbia, an active fleet of Cal 20s race, and are VERY fast. They pull their little OBs out of the well and plug the hole when racing. They use little 2 strokes of around 4 HP, but then they can't motor for long times, or punch through any snotty water, either. EVERY BOAT IS A COMPROMISE!!!

Gary B.
Encore! SK/SR #685 (with a great Yamaha 9.9 that RARELY cavitates/ backs and motors like crazy while keeping batteries up. I LOVE it. I think it would out-pull a lot of small diesels......Problem? It's pretty dang heavy.....)

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 20:44:52

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 10:49:23

The outboard-in-a-locker idea sounds great, until... My friend's Bristol 25 has that set-up. Advantage: less cavitation, because the prop is farther away from the transom. Disadvantages: overheating of the motor, lack of oxygen causing stalls, build-up of marine wildlife on the prop and shaft, need for remote control or you're always reaching into that darned locker...

Frank Butler's C25 compromise ain't half bad...

As for cost issues, the differential has narrowed with the advent of 4-stroke outboards. A typical Honda 9.9 costs from $2500 to $3500 (with elec start and alternator) depending on where you buy it. A Zetus 13 hp diesel inboard (Mitsu based) with panel and all fittings (but not actually installed) can be bought for $4200.

Dave on Wood Duck (2616)

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 22:14:07

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
As for cost issues, the differential has narrowed with the advent of 4-stroke outboards. A typical Honda 9.9 costs from $2500 to $3500 (with elec start and alternator) depending on where you buy it. A Zetus 13 hp diesel inboard (Mitsu based) with panel and all fittings (but not actually installed) can be bought for $4200.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
The Honda 8 electric start/XL is more than you need, and is well under $2500 everywhere that I know of. The installed price of a small diesel in a boat that already had one is, from the little I've seen, a lot more than $4200. (Try $7000.)

As for Zetus (?), one thing I've learned from friends with diesels is that you want one of the most common, easily serviced brands out there. Around here, Yanmar and Universal pretty much take the honors. A few bucks saved on an off-brand are a few bucks you'll wish you spent when something goes wrong or you need some simple parts, or when you want to sell the boat. But what do we C-25 folks care about that? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 23:04:15

Dave:

From what I understand, the new Honda 8 and 9.9 are the same motor. The older 9.9, which I have, was based on the 15, and was a heavier (much) and more expensive motor.

As to inboards, I agree. I was merely citing the price of a Zetus as an example. Installed, a small Yanmar is about $7000 (not here, though, on the Vineyard--try 10k to 12k). Volvos make great cars, but not marine engines. Mitsubishi don't even build decent cars. So, yes, I would saty with Yanmar or Universal.

BTW, a complete rebuild is about half the above prices. Maybe I was just trying to prove to myself that I can afford a 28' Shannon or a 32' Crealock with an inboard diesel. Retirement looms (wrong word--it beckons, actually) and my new Florida home has a deep water dock. (In SW Florida, deep water means anything above six feet!) I am currently shopping the above and some older Morgan 34's. Something that can get me back to the Vineyard in the summer without braving the stinkpot wash on the Intracoastal.

Just dreaming, actually...

Dave on Wood Duck (2616)

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