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Questions about swing to wing conversion

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cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/02/2003 : 15:59:33

I feel it is time to make the conversion from swing to wing keel. Most of the water is shallow here in northwest Florida and at times there is only 1 foot of water at our dock. Perhaps sitting in the mud at the dock has contributed to damage to the keel trunk, which means my boat leaks in the keel pivot area when the keel is down.

I would appreciate any thoughts, comments on the wing versus swing keel, especially considering shallow water. Catalina Direct and the specs would indicate the wing keel will draw only 2 inches more than the swing. Any actual experience there?

Will I have any difficulty with the wing keel sitting on the bottom during low tide? This could happen once or twice a month, four or five months out of the year.

The description and pictures in technical help about the conversion to "Minnie" have been invaluable. Once we shared the information with the most reputable local boatyard they have agreed to performing the conversion. Thank you.

I am very close to proceeding with this conversion and would really appreciate experiences, thoughts or comments.

Thanks,
Chris Hunsicker
Panama City, Florida

Moonglade 80 sk sr

Edited by - on

cat30
1st Mate

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73 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 15:57:47

We converted to wing years ago after bringing the swing cable one too many times. I did the prep work the yard did the heavy lifting. a template form catalina made locating the keel bolts easy. the yard decided to use 5200 instead of the goop provide by catalina- the main problem was deciding how to finish the holes inside the boat where the washers and nuts were screwed onto the keel bolts- i couldn't tell a difference on the stability or sailing ability of the wing over the swing. at low tide my boat occasionally sat on the bottom in the slip- with no ill affects. you won't miss the banging sound as the keel banged from side to side. the boat fit onthe same trailor with minor adjustments to the bunks.

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cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 00:32:12

Thanks for your comments.
We ordered a new keel from Catalina Direct, should be here in a few weeks.

I like the thoughts about using the 5200. Also wondered about the bolts inside. (right now seems the worst of my worries) It helps to know your feelings about sitting on the bottom. The trailer was also a concern. You really answered alot of questions. Thanks.

Happy Sailing

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 10:19:57

CCH, we await your reports on a successful installation !
(complete with photos of course) ;>)

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 11:07:33

Speaking of adjusting the bunks on the trailer, I'm having the conversion done this fall (if the boat yard doesn't back out on me), and I have heard that the bunks will need raised a couple inches or so to accommodate the slightly deep draft of the wing keel. It seems to me though, that I read that the wing keel is only a couple inches deeper than the swing keel when the swing keel is in the up position. My thinking is this...when I retrieve my boat and it's on the trailer again, I have to lower the keel about 5 or 6 inches to rest in the tray on the trailer. If what I'm told about small amount of additional draft on the wing keel, I'm thinking maybe I won't have to adjust the trailer bunks up at all. By the way, I have the roller-type bunks.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 11:30:08

Hi Ben,

You may be right. The bunks on your trailer may actually be too high. Since your boat will be in slings to replace the keel and do the work, it will be easy to position the trailer under the boat and then slowly lower the boat to see what is needed.

Remember that the keel needs to have approximately 75% to 80% of the total weight when resting on the trailer. So, you need to have a horizontal keel pad on the trailer. Some skippers have a 1/4" steel plate welded on and put a 2x6 covered with carpet on the steel for the keel to sit on. If your trailer has a piece of channel iron welded on for the keel (great for extra strength and also making sort of a wide "U") you certainly want to put a piece of 2x6 in the channel so that the wings of the keel aren't taking all the weight.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1768 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 12:22:07

Remember that the keel needs to have approximately 75% to 80% of the total weight when resting on the trailer. So, you need to have a horizontal keel pad on the trailer. Some skippers have a 1/4" steel plate welded on and put a 2x6 covered with carpet on the steel for the keel to sit on. If your trailer has a piece of channel iron welded on for the keel (great for extra strength and also making sort of a wide "U") you certainly want to put a piece of 2x6 in the channel so that the wings of the keel aren't taking all the weight.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839


Hi Bill,

I'm not quite following this ... maybe you can clear it up for me.

My trailer is like Ben's ... it has bunks of rollers that support the hull of the boat. It seems to me that for a swing keel there is no weight supported by the keel at all. In fact, the keel must be lowered so that the weight of the swing keel is supported by the trailer (to take strain off the swing keel cable assembly), and to butt the keel against an axle to help keep the boat from slipping backwards on the trailer.

If that is so (i.e., the keel doesn't support any of the boat's weight), why would a wing keel be different? It seems to me that all Ben would have to do is to make sure his wing keel can clear the axles & cross braces when loading/unloading, and the roller bunks would support the weight as they do now with his swing keel. The only problem I see other than that is that it might be a good idea to rig a safety strap around the wing keel so the boat wouldn't slip backwards (since there is no longer a swing keel to butt against an axle or cross brace).

Where am I going wrong?

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 14:42:18

For one thing, Buzz, the rollers/bunks will be supporting 1900 lbs more than they do now. For another, every bump on the road would put major stress on the hull, keel bolts, and joint if the keel is just hanging. While it's tough to measure the weight supported at each location, it's safest to assume that the main load bearing point is the keel, and the bunks are stabilizing the boat--just as it's done when the boatyard puts my fin keeler on the hard. (And mine doesn't hit any bumps.)

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1768 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 16:17:12

For one thing, Buzz, the rollers/bunks will be supporting 1900 lbs more than they do now. - Dave Bristle

I guess that makes sense ... a lot of the swing keel's weight is supported by the axle or cross brace ... an unsupported wing keel would be added weight to the bunks of rollers.

With all the discussion we've had from time to time about swing to wing conversions, this is the first time the subject of trailer modifications has come up ... I'd never given it any thought prior to this. The big eye-opener for me is how much it really costs to convert from a swing to a wing ... it's more than just buying the new wing keel, you've got to pay to ship it, pay to have it installed, and pay to have your trailer modified ... wow! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 17:58:54

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...you've got to pay to ship it, pay to have it installed, and pay to have your trailer modified ... wow!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Well, Buzz, you know what B.O.A.T. stands for...

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 19:25:03

Hi Buzz,

Dave is right on. With the swing keel, the rollers only had to support approximately the weight of the hull. With the swing keel resting on the axle cross brace, the keel's weight was pretty much supported there.

With a fixed keel or wing keel, the rollers should not be relied upon to support all the weight of boat AND keel. Resting 75% to 80% of the total weight on the keel (and trailer's keel pad) relieves the rollers of much weight. That's why half a dozen 1 sq ft pads will work as well or better than rollers or bunks for the fixed keel boats. The pads only have to support about 200 lbs each.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

PS: If you think this conversion is expensive, imagine how expensive it might be to convert one of the original fin keel C25s to a swing keel system.

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 22:58:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...PS: If you think this conversion is expensive, imagine how expensive it might be to convert one of the original fin keel C25s to a swing keel system.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Uhhhh... Why?? <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 08:49:29

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
My thinking is this...when I retrieve my boat and it's on the trailer again, I have to lower the keel about 5 or 6 inches to rest in the tray on the trailer. If what I'm told about small amount of additional draft on the wing keel, I'm thinking maybe I won't have to adjust the trailer bunks up at all. By the way, I have the roller-type bunks.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Ben,

My trailer also has rolling bunks. With any luck we will be doing the conversion in September. I will take pictures and post either in the forum or technical help (I will need to learn how first) As for your trailer it sounds as though your bunks are a bit high already. When we put our boat on the trailer I only have to lower the keel about an inch to make it rest on the trailer. Yours may be ready for a wing keel as is.

Good luck with your conversion.

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade 80 sr/sk

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 10:44:51

Thanks Chris. I look forward to hearing how your conversion goes.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.