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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

anchors

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puffin
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/05/2003 : 20:18:07

I'd like to replace the heavy steel anchor that came with my 250 for something easier to manage. I came across a Fortress aluminum anchor in the West Marine catalog. The manufacturer recommends that a four pound Fortress is enough for boats up to 26 feet. Has anyone given this anchor a try? Is holding power sufficient for the 250?

Thanks!

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 22:22:36

There's no simple answer to that--just questions... What kind of bottom will you usually be anchoring in--sand, mud, grass, gravel? For how long--lunch, afternoon swimming, overnight (sleeping)? What kind of wave/wind action--protected, a little chop, possible heavy weather? Depending on the answers, the correct anchor may not be a Danforth-style (such as the Fortress) at all. If not, the alternative will be less "manageable" than the Danforth, not more; but it will let you sleep at night.

If a Fortress is sufficient, there are three variables: the size of the anchor, the length of the chain, and the overall length of the rode. If your steel Danforth holds sufficiently for you, the same size (not weight) Fortress will be sufficient, too--but it should have at least the same amount of chain. The chain helps the rode to pull the anchor horizontally instead of up, allowing it to dig in. 25' is a good number for moderate conditions.

I have a Danforth for a "lunch hook" in the anchor locker, and a 14# Delta stored below for a little more security in tougher holding conditions.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 08/05/2003 22:25:50

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 11:29:31

A wise old sailor (might have been Don Street) once said, "There are two kinds of sailors - those who have drug their anchor in the middle of the night and those who are going to." I'm one who has drug in the middle of the night - - with 50+ knots of wind and hard rain blowing sideways. Plus, it was just about as dark as the inside of a cow.

That experience convinced me of a couple of things. One is don't be cheap when it comes to your anchoring system. This is not the place to economize. Even a couple hundred dollars saved is poor insurance if a blow gets up in the night.

Another is to go at least one size up from minimum recommended size for the anchor you are considering.....maybe two sizes up. The standard "economy anchor package" that is recommended for 25 ft boats usually has a 9 lb danforth style anchor, 6 ft of 1/4" chain, and 150' of 3/8" nylon rope. And this is sufficient for anchoring for a swim or lunch..........BUT NOT FOR OVERNIGHT WITH A STORM APPROACHING!

A third is to have TWO COMPLETE ANCHOR SETUPS. I use two different anchors, but the chain and rope part is the same......25' of 1/4" chain and 200' of 3/8" nylon rope....each. The anchors you choose should reflect the type of bottom you expect to anchor in most of the time.

Two complete anchor setups allows you to easily set the right anchor first. AND, be able to set a second anchor for stormy conditions.

Finally, install an anchor roller on the bow of your boat. This greatly simplifies setting and weighing your anchor. Use the roller that is appropriate for the anchor you use most of the time.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

BTW: I have considered recently changing the chain/rope system on my primary anchor to an all chain system. 200' of 3/8" rope plus 25' of 1/4" chain weigh in at about 25 lbs. 125' of 1/4" chain weigh about 75 lbs. The extra security of all chain by adding only about 50 lbs might be worth it????

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 11:58:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
BTW: I have considered recently changing the chain/rope system on my primary anchor to an all chain system. 200' of 3/8" rope plus 25' of 1/4" chain weigh in at about 25 lbs. 125' of 1/4" chain weigh about 75 lbs. The extra security of all chain by adding only about 50 lbs might be worth it????
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Two questions, Bill:
(1) Is the shock-absorbing effect of nylon line worth anything as part of the system, and lost by using all chain?
(2) How do you cleat off the chain when anchored--use a pin on the bow roller?

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 12:24:20

Bill:

I'm always a proponant of "more chain". However, an alternative to going all-chain could be to add some chain to your existing setup so you gain its benefits while maintaining the ability to have decent scope in deeper water.

My boat came with 300' nylon and 12' chain on the primary. Adding 50' of chain was pretty simple and has helped me sleep (a little) better.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d725b3127cce907c15536d8a0000001610" border=0>

Edited by - RichardG on 08/06/2003 12:39:06

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 13:37:58

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
(2) How do you cleat off the chain when anchored--use a pin on the bow roller?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No, the pin could never withstand the force. A 1/4" chain can be tied-off by placing links laying horizontal under the ends of the cleat.

I agree with Richard that 125' is not sufficient scope for most applications. 300' of 1/4" chain is going to add a lot more weight.

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 14:17:52

From personal experience I don't think any style anchor beats a Bruce in a mud bottom. We once held the 50' Catamaran in 60' of water with a 35 lb Bruce, 35' of 3/4" chain and 360' 3/4" nylon rode in 40 knots wind. We stripped the windlass gears the next morning attempting to raise it...(still blowing 40!)
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 09:33:25

A friend of mine has the Aluminum Fortress anchor you reference and loves it. It has held both his 24' hunter and my 250WB simultaneously and stuck well.
I am a big proponent of a using a bit more chain but I think too much would be counter to what you are trying to do- reduce the handling weight. Remember, its main purpose is to lower the drag on the anchor so that it can dig in. The shock absorbtion of the nylon rode is critical for comfort if it starts to blow.
While their is great debate over anchor types in the sand and mud where I sail the danforth style has been extremely effective. I have used plows and Bruces ans still find my favorite to be the Danforth.
No matter what anchor you choose, the two real issues are proper set and at least a 7 to 1 scope.

Edgy, WB#655
Rehoboth Bay, DE

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 11:18:14

Hi all,

For Dave: [iTwo questions, Bill:
(1) Is the shock-absorbing effect of nylon line worth anything as part of the system, and lost by using all chain?
(2) How do you cleat off the chain when an]chored--use a pin on the bow roller?[/i]
(1) Most skippers that I talk to regarding all chain rode use a 6' to 8' length of nylon rope with a chain hook to act as a "snubber" to dampen the potential shock if the chain goes straight. The "snubber" is hooked to the chain and then cleated on a bow cleat with ~5' or 6' of nylon taking the strain.
(2) To "cleat off" the chain, use a chain stopper. This is through bolted to the deck with backing plate.

Remember that I've only been considering this idea. The primary reason is that the amount of scope let out with all chain is only around half of what you'd do with chain/rope combo. So, in a crowded anchorage the all chain has a big advantage.

For Richard G: I agree that going to 50' of chain plus 300' of rope is a great option. You sort of get the best of both worlds.

For Derek: I sure agree that the Bruce is a great anchor in mud. Also in sand and seaweedy bottoms. It sets quickly and if it does pull out, resets quickly. The biggest problem is probably with stowage. You really need to have a dedicated anchor roller for the Bruce if you anchor very often.

For Willy: I think the Fortess is a great anchor. Sets quickly, holds well, and is lighter than the others. It is also adjustable for different bottoms. I just watched a video that showed two anchor tests (one on the East coast and on in San Francisco). Each test was done using a large tugboat and one anchor rope/chain. In the test different anchors were shackled to the rode and then set behind the tug. The tug would pull on the anchor rode until the anchor pulled free. A gauge was set up on the rode to record the max pull in lbs just before the anchor pulled free - indicating the holding power of each anchor. Danforth, Delta, Fortress, Bruce, CQR, and others were tested. Pound for pound, the Fortress had the best holding power on both the East and West coast.

BTW: the video is part of the old Sailing Quarterly shows, so may be hard to find unless you know someone who subscribed to that video series.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 15:03:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...Pound for pound, the Fortress had the best holding power on both the East and West coast...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Isn't that a little like say "pound for pound, Sugar Ray Leonard was the best boxer" when that actually meant he'd still get beaten up by a good heavyweight? At any particular weight, the aluminum Fortress will be a much bigger anchor than any steel model. At any given size, isn't the Fortress is basically just a light Danforth?

That's not to say I don't like the Fortress--I've heard good things about it, except in grass. I'd like to replace the PO's lunch hook with a little one, but that's WAY down the list.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 19:40:37

Hi Dave,

I guess that I must have mis-communicated the test results. What they showed was that the lighter weight Fortress anchors (with the same chain and rope system) held better than heavier anchors. This verified the assertion by Fortress that their lightweight anchors worked as well as or better than others.

So, when I see that a 4 lb FX7 Fortress is recommended for boats up to 27 footers; and that it takes a 13 lb Danforth or a 25 lb CQR for the same boat; I've seen two tests that verified the holding power is the actually the same. Reason?? The lighter Fortress simply dug into the bottom better and held longer.

That's not saying "go out and buy one right away". But, if I were going to buy another anchor, I'd consider pretty strongly the Fortress instead of a heavier style. And, that's where Puffin's original question is coming from.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 00:03:59

Thanks, Bill... I'll buy that (although not right now).

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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puffin
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2003 : 11:37:51

Thanks to all for the responses. I went ahead and bought the Fortress and will use the steel monster as a backup. Since anchor weight is a big issue given a shoulder injury and I anchor primarily in mud, seemed like a reasonable choice.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2003 : 08:09:13

Another throw in on this topic is storage. In previous cruising years, my 16.5 lb Horizon Claw (bruce clone) has been store in cockpit locker. Testing however showed that it can be stored without difficulty along with a 13lb Danforth in the anchor locker.

This with 200 feet of chain and rode (1/2")on each. It takes a little more discipline when stowing the anchors and the danforth stowes above the bruce so must be temporarily set aside when using the bruce but this presented no problems compared to the convenience of having them both stored forward in the locker.

The bruce serves my primary.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2003 : 22:29:55

My anchoring conditions must be a lot different than most of yours.Some of you have mentioned 200'-300' of nylon rode plus 25' of chain. This works out to 40'-50' of water at a 7:1 scope. I generally anchor in 10'-15' of water, very rarely more than 30'. Therefore my rodes are set up with 100'-150' of nylon plus 20'-25' of chain. If I am in a crowded anchorage, I start out with about 7:1 until I am comfortable with my holding. I then shorten to about 5:1 if weather reports look good. If there is any question of weather or swell, I set a second hook. Another thing is, with a lot of scope out my boat tends to sail back and forth across the anchor, with a hard jerk at the end. She then tacks and races for the opposite extreme of the rode. Since my anchorages are fairly shallow, I make it a practice to dive on my anchor to dig it in, even just for a lunch stop.
Lastly; Bill, if you are anchoring in 40'-50' of water, give some serious thought to hauling that much chain aboard plus the anchor. I also like the security of an all chain rode, but even that last 25' gets heavy.

Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

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