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Footless main

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Mark Loyacano
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USA
247 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/08/2003 : 10:45:52

After reading in our forum about members who sail "footless", I tried it. What a positive difference this makes to a baggy old main sail. Reefing is easier too.
Thanks for the suggestion.

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 10:54:38

Mark: How did you "try it"? Did you add a slug at the tack and/or clew? Did you rig a multi-part outhaul? I'm just wondering what it takes to try it?

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 11:05:35

I'd like some expansion on this topic, as well. If I pull the bolt rope out of the boom track, my 1/4" outhaul will be the only thing holding the main. Is that enough to handle the forces being exerted on the main?

Thanks!

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
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Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 11:43:39

I added a sail slug with a slightly longer shackle (than used at the luff) to the clew. The outhaul is just a double purchase ...seems ok for cruising around the lake. Racers here are using more outhaul purchase than that.
I am considering adding a sail slug to the tack.

What I have read on this forum is that sails can be made expressly for a footless rig. Val, was it yours?

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 11:45:38

I have one Mark. The foot looks very similar to a jib. There isn't any extra bolt rope to get in the way. Right now, I don't think I'd go back.

DW

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 12:02:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
There isn't any extra bolt rope to get in the way.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In the way of what? Duane, how are you rigged now from the clew?

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Dave B
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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 12:08:45

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
What I have read on this forum is that sails can be made expressly for a footless rig. Val, was it yours?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
As I understand it, a loose-footed main is built with a convex-curved foot that actually "droops" a little alongside the boom so you don't have an open slot above the boom when the outhaul is cranked down tight. I think they may also reinforce the attachments for the tack and clew slugs.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

RichardG
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990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 13:57:57

I, like Mark, also "tried it" about a year ago and also will not go back. I was first motivated by the fact that the boltrope in the groove allowed very little adjustment by the outhaul even after I rigged it up 4:1 with miscellaneous blocks and shackles obtained from the bottom of a drawer. I first just simply removed the boltrope from the groove in the boom, but left the slug attached to the clew in the groove (outhaul attached as before). The ability to adjust the shape of the foot of the sail over different wind speeds improved considerably. However, the original clew slug was small and plastic -- so I had a loft replace it by a much larger stainless steel slug. I don't have and didn't add a tack slug because the tack seems pretty strong, with three strong-looking pieces of webbing sewn into both sides of the sailcloth, and through the tack ring.

While the original boltrope is still there, to me it doesn't "get in the way" because it is just the terminating part of the foot of the sail. It also doesn't leave an open slot at the boom when the outhaul is tightened -- the boltrope just rests along the groove.

If I were buying a new main, I would get the special foot added. However, I currently am not in the market for a new main and thus feel my current setup is a pretty good (and cheaper) compromise.

Edited by - RichardG on 08/08/2003 14:12:45

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 14:11:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...but left the slug attached to the clew in the groove (outhaul attached as before). However, the original clew slug was small and plastic -- so I had a loft replace it by a much larger stainless steel slug.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks, Richard. I have a couple more questions: 1) I've never noticed a clew slug, although that doesn't mean there isn't one on Antares. Was that the standard configuration from the factory? 2) What diameter is your outhaul? 3) How much risk of breaking do you think the small, plastic clew slug was under while you were originally testing?

Thanks for all the helpful information. I think I may try the footless main this weekend.

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 14:20:15

Get in the way was probably a poor choice of words. Half the time my mind is a paragraph ahead of my fingers and I don't even know what I type.

What I meant was that you don't have to bend/thread an entire sail onto the boom. Which is nice for those who trailer, or those who remove the sails after each time out. Just drop one slug into place and your pretty much set with the foot. (we also have a shear [sp?] pin at the tack, so that is easier too)

Some other benefits of loose footing a main whether its made for it or not:

<ul>
<li> easier outhaul control - i.e. easier to tighten </li>
<li> Better sail shape for because of better outhaul control</li>
<li> Better sail shape while reefing</li>
<li> you can tie the sail to itself while reefing instead of the boom putting zero load on the interior reefing kringlesp</li>
<li> The boom becomes a hand hold or railing all the way to the mast since the sail isn't in the way</li>
</ul>

As for Antares's question - There minimal load on the foot of a normal main. The regular 2 to 1 outhaul that most C-25's have should be more than enough holding the tack.

I pulled this from the UK Sails website
http://www.uksailmakers.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia4a.html
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Shelf Foot and Loose Foot
The Shelf-Foot and Loose-Foot constructions are options that allow us to add a substantial degree of extra fullness in the lower portion of the mainsail in order to improve racing performance on reaches and runs. In very light air, the improved performance is achieved even to windward. The extra fullness is removed by tightening the outhaul. When the outhaul is eased, the sail maintains an airfoil shape down to the boom. With the Shelf-Foot option, a light piece of material connects the sail to the boom. With the outhaul eased, the connecting material unfolds and forms a shelf between the bottom of the main and the boom. When the outhaul is pulled tight, the shelf closes up and lays against the side of the boom.

Loose-Foot construction does away with the shelf material. The sail is only attached to the boom at the tack and clew. This attachment method is equally as strong as that of the foot attached to the boom. Many boats are switching to Loose-Footed mains because they make it easier to bend on your mainsail and to remove the sail from the boom — and it's less expensive. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

and this from Cruising Direct
http://www.cruisingdirect.com/LooseFootedMainsail.htm
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What are the advantages of a loose-footed mainsail?

North Sails favors a loose footed arrangement for
most of our Cruising customers.

The loose foot allows the sailor to adjust the shape of the lower 20% of the mainsail by easing the outhaul to add depth to the sail or pulling the outhaul very hard to flatten out the lower section of the sail.

The alternative to a loose foot arrangement is to equip the sail with slides along the foot, which hold the fabric on the boom. The slides don't add to the strength or durability of the sail. On the contrary, the slide attachment points tend to add to the cost of maintaining the sail. The sail fabric is more highly loaded in the area of each attachment and as such the fabric degrades with use and UV exposure, the sail is more likely to rip at any attachment point that is slightly more loaded than it was designed for.

There are some practical advantages to a loose foot. During installation of the sail, the sail battens can be loaded on the dock, the sail flaked and tied and then loaded directly onto the top of the boom. This works especially well if you have lazy jacks. When it is time to remove the sail, it can be flaked on the boom, bundled with sail ties that are run around the sail but over the boom and then lifted off. Reefing lines can be dead-ended on the boom without concern for ripping a slide off the foot of the sail if the line is tied in the wrong place. In short, with modern, low stretch sail fabrics, slides or other attachment points along the boom do not offer any advantages.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 08/08/2003 14:21:35

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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1883 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 14:32:27

Mark,

I happened on loosefooting my new main. Wasn't happy with the inability to show any significant change in sail shape with the outhaul on Calista. Called my sailman and asked about putting a shelf in the foot to produce a more desirable sail shape and was told, "sure $75 and several weeks to do. Didn't want to loose the season so I slipped the bolt rope, thinking what the hell and it's been great ever since. The Ullman sail that I did this on had a hefty end slug, 1 1/2" stainless. It was a gamble that paid off, four years so far and no problems. I have no intention of returning to a footed sail. As a side note I've not seen any significant world class yachts using other than loose fitted mains, not that that had any bearing on my decision to do as I did.

If you try it you loose nothing...don't like it, put the rope back in the groove.

I LIKE IT

Val on Calista # 3936

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 14:33:04

<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> Thank you, Duane!

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 14:42:46

I don't know if the clew slug was stock. I replaced my main after the old one shredded in high winds a couple years back.

I think I have 1/4" outhaul line. However, someone here (Derek?) is a proponant of 3/16" line for this and other uses (traveller, reef, cunningham) as it is plenty strong (although maybe not enough for the Southern Ocean <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) and creates less friction through blocks, etc., thus much easier to tighten. Based on this advice, I just bought some 3/16" line for the traveller which I hope to install this weekend (doing double-braid eye splices with my newly learned Brion Toss splicing wand).

If the sail was original, I feel the risk of failure of the original plastice clew slug would be considerable. If the clew broke, you would quickly have to lower the main to prevent further damage to the sail. Much worse would be failure of the clew. While the guy at the sail loft said I didn't really need it, I had him sew in a piece of webbing at the clew at the same time I upgraded the clew slug in order to mitigate this risk.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 15:08:45

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
However, someone here (Derek?) is a proponant of 3/16" line...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Good, then I'll have a weight advantage if I ever match race him. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...(although maybe not enough for the Southern Ocean <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I think I've opened myself up for quite a lot of harassment, haven't I?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If the sail was original, I feel the risk of failure of the original plastic clew slug would be considerable. Much worse would be failure of the clew.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Thank you for that expedient reply! It is original and I was just getting ready to shut down the computer, walk out of the office, and go pull my bolt rope out of the groove. Guess it'll have to wait.

Thanks for all the great information! I hope everyone has a great weekend.

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

Gloss
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1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 18:31:25

OK, I'm sold on loose footing my main.

I have the original factory main. I'm just a little confused just as to how to convert it to loose footed. Do I just need a slug, or do I need to send in my sail to someone, if so, who? Maybe I'll wait until this winter and then get it reworked, and reconditioned at the same time.

What do you think?

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2003 : 00:28:09

Frank,
You only need to pull the foot of the sail (the rope) from the boom. Add a sail slug and shackel to the grommet (keep your outhaul attached there too)and try sailing that way...to see if you like it.

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2003 : 10:20:24

Frank and JB:

If your clew has no slug, or the clew slug is old and its strength is questionable, I've heard others tie a piece of loose webbing or line through the clew eye and around the boom -- this will hold the clew down on the boom. As before, the outhaul holds the clew back.

No need to wait to join the footless fun...

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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