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Rudder Gudgeons

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Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/14/2003 : 12:48:16

I will be replacing my gudgeons this weekend and I was wondering
if there was anything I needed to do to seal them
during installation.
Thanks

CVick
Panacea II '81 C26 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Steve Kostanich
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2003 : 13:23:29

Charlie,
The bottom one is the critical one. I used 3M 5200 on mine, since knocking the guedgon loose should not be too much of a problem if I ever had to take one off, but YES seal them. Just as important is the addition of backer plates (1/8" to 3/16" stainless or aluminum) on the inside of the transom for the nuts and washers to bear against. Put some sealant under the backers too. Double nut and/or locktite the nuts. Anything you can do to prevent loosing steering is a plus.

Steve Kostanich C-25 1119 Equinox sr/sk Moored Oly, WA.

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2003 : 16:00:44

Steve's right about the backing and the bedding... I'll suggest polysulfide caulk, however--5200 might yank some gelcoat off when you try to replace or rebed in the future. The bolts and backers are your fasteners--you don't need the caulk to be a fastener. Also, I wouldn't bed the inside--if moisture is getting past the outer bedding, I'd want to know about it instead of having it soak into the laminate with no trace inside. The good news is both gudgeons are above the waterline, so we're not really talking about something that'll sink the boat.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2003 : 21:09:12

"The good news is both gudgeons are above the waterline"
Except when you're sailing or motoring, Dave! This comes from personal experience of a leaking bottom gudgeon <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2003 : 23:02:34

Don't overlook the upper gudgeon. Getting at it (unless PO has done this) requires cutting a hole in the transom liner and inserting a Beckson plate or some similar access. Do not short-change yourself. This is the gudgeon that has a history of "letting go". Mine parted company from "Wood Duck" off Gloucester, Mass. in a storm. Fortunately I was able to make it back into harbor in Annisquam, where I repaired the gudgeon and sat out the storm by viewing "The Perfect Storm" at the movie theater across the street from the marina. This serves for me as a perfect reminder to check the gudgeons periodically.

Oh, and yes, I would use 4200 or Life Caulk. 5200 should only be used for attaching old folks' false teeth. It is totally permament.

Dave on "Wood Duck" 2616

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 02:08:11

Charlie,

When I replaced the rudder gudgeons on my 1979 C-25 a few years ago, I upgraded the bolts to 5/16" diameter, cast epoxy bushings through the transom core, added 3/16" thick epoxy fiberglass backing plates, stainless fender washers, Nylock nuts, and bedded everything with polysulfide sealant. So far, so good.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 03:50:04

Hey Leon,
I used the same methods to fasten my Gudgeons as you did, except the use of the epoxy backing plates. I never heard of them. What did you do, put on a couple layers of glass and epoxy, or is this something different?
I find that by using machine bolts you can use vise grips on the bolt which makes it easier when single handing bolt tightening (or is it vice grips?, no, that's something else)
Thanks

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 11:16:00

Frank,

Re: "... use of the epoxy backing plates ... What did you do, put on a couple layers of glass and epoxy, or is this something different?"

That's the general idea. As I began removing and reinstalling all my deck hardware and adding various upgrades, it became obvious that I was going to be making and installing a lot of backing plates. I started by laminating up a panel of epoxy fiberglass about 1'x2'x3/16". I did this on a sheet of waxed paper on a smooth benchtop. After layup was finished, I put on another layer of waxed paper and clamped down a thick piece of scrap plywood to squeeze out any extra resin, and to give a flat smooth finish to both sides of the panel. After curing, I then used a jigsaw to cut out exactly the size and shape backing plates I needed as I went along.

When installing the fiberglass backing plates, sometimes I bolted them on dry, or bedded them with polysulfide or polyurethane, or permanently installed them with epoxy mush. It just sort of depended on the situation.

In a few curved places or tight corners, I used the other method you mentioned of laminating an epoxy and glass roving backing plate in place on the boat.

Another way to come up with a panel of fiberglass would be to drop by most any boat yard with your circular saw, and ask which abandoned hull they plan on scrapping next. Powerboats in particular have lots of broad flat surfaces to choose from.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 12:38:50

ooh! Being allowed to attack a powerboat with a chain saw...what ecstacy! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> But do we have to wait until they are scrapped? <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 12:51:52

I was afraid the top gudgeon might be a little difficult to get to
so I may wait on that one. Actually I lost the bottom one and I was
going to replace both of them for the bushings in the new ones so I guess I can live with it for now. What really upset me about the whole thing is that I was about 2 hours into the best wind I've had in two months and even better wind the next day and all I could do was sit on the dock and watch! Some things just really break your heart.

CVick PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 13:48:08

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
What really upset me about the whole thing is that I was about 2 hours into the best wind I've had in two months and even better wind the next day and all I could do was sit on the dock and watch! Some things just really break your heart.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That'd be the real reason pirates commandeer, borrow really, other people's boats. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d634b3127cce8ce5dfc896650000001010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 14:26:25

JB
I sail on Tenkiller so I reckon you got the same wind I had two weeks
ago after the storms came through saturday and sunday morning. We had several docks in the cove get blown to pieces that sunday and I couldn't have felt safer riding it out on my boat. I bought her in August last year and never had a bad weekend of sailing till mid January so I'm looking foreward to that again this season. I know it was because of the wind but it was also because most of the powerboaters leave for the winter after labor day. Thank God they don't like the cold weather!

PanaceaII '81 C25 # 2439 SRSK
CVick
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 14:47:55

Hi Charlie,

Sorry, I wasn't paying very close attention to who was posting. Did you ever get those new sails? If so, did you use Roger?

As others on the forum have already noted, I may not be too smart. <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle> Although I got to Grand too late Friday night to get out, I was on the lake for the rest of the excitement that Saturday and Sunday. I love cat's paws and white caps...Yeehaw! Last weekend was a much more relaxed three days of sailing.

I, also, am ready for the powerboaters, especially the 50' Sea Rays, to go BYE BYE! <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> I actually got pooped by one's wake last weekend. <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

I didn't realize PanaceaII was on Tenkiller. We should get together and take a couple of turns on each others boats sometime in the future. Or, feel free to stop by Masthead Point Marina just North of Ketchum any weekend, as I'm always there.

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2003 : 16:00:59

JB

Unfortunately my new ex-wife figured she needed the boat units more than I did so no new sails this season. I have learned a little about sail repair so my old ones will get me thru this year though maybe not as fast as I'd like to go.
I'd love to come up and see how a 25 is supposed to rigged out cause mine leaves a bit to be desired. The PO, a friend of mine, did absolutely nothing as far as maintaining or caring for her and fortunately didn't sail her much either. She is about as stock out of the box as you can get so I'm working with a blank canvas. I've made some minor repairs and done a lot of cleaning but I'm kind of embarassed to say I'm not much better than he as far as major repairs go. I love to sail and my time is limited to the weekends so I sail and don't work on her as much as I should and since I not on the big water have adopted the policy "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I "fixed" the bottom gudgeon the morning before I lost it hence my philosophy.
Maybe we can get together sometime this fall and do some sailing and I could get some good ideas on upgrading her to make her more sound though I love her just the way she is now.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 11:34:11

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Unfortunately my new ex-wife figured she needed the boat units more than I did...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Don't even get me started on that topic... However, becoming an ex-spouse and a new boatowner at about the same time seems to be a common theme. I, for one, am much happier with the boat. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I love to sail and my time is limited to the weekends so I sail and don't work on her as much as I should and since I'm not on the big water have adopted the policy "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Given a severely limited amount of time, I would adopt that same policy. Although, there are some items that will cost you far more time and money to fix in the future (e.g., deck leaks and bulkhead deterioration, outboard bracket plywood mounting board, etc.)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Maybe we can get together sometime this fall and do some sailing and I could get some good ideas on upgrading her to make her more sound though I love her just the way she is now.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I promised my son that I wouldn't drag him to the lake (what is this kid thinking, anyway) the weekend of 9/13 and 9/14. Other than that, just let me know.

Best regards,

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 12:03:55

Ok I know I should have looked before ordering my parts but I assumed
(bad habit I know) that the gudgeons were mounted to-hull. Tech at Catalina Direct told me they were mounted thru-hull and sent me the mounting hardware accordingly. I get to my boat saturday to find out that in fact they are mounted to-hull with the old screws broken off about a quarter inch inside the sheave.
My only recourse now its to either drill out the old screws and replace them or drill the whole thing out and use thru-hull sheaves with a backing plate. (prefered)
So now I guess I'm looking for sheave sizes and hull thickness at the transom where the gudgeon mounts.
I'd also like to know why Catalina Direct sells thru-hull mounting hardware when in original form its to-hull.

CVick
PanaceaII "81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith ,AR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 15:40:37

Charlie - on my '81 the lower gudgeon is "through hull". If you climb into the quarter berth there's a small squarish vertical piece of teak right at the transom. Lift it off and you will see the inside ends of the lower gudgeon bolts, complete with washers, nuts and a metal backing plate. You cannot get to the upper gudgeon through there unfortunately...Catalina is too good a builder to trust a rudder to a to-hull fitting!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 16:08:45

Derek

Thats exactly what I did but no fittings thru the hull.
The only thing you could see thru the hull was the bilge hose.
My brother didn't believe me and crawled back to take a look for himself, a nice feat for 290 pounds, and found nothing.
The only other thing I can think is that the nuts where glassed over after installation but there is no "bulge" in the glass where the nuts should be and it all looks like a factory finish, not something a PO might have done later.
I wouldn't think Catalina would to-hull something as important as a rudder gudgeon but thats the way it is.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 16:10:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...I get to my boat saturday to find out that in fact they are mounted to-hull with the old screws broken off about a quarter inch inside the sheave.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Are you SURE, Charlie? Look where Derek describes, and you should find a bronze plate that is threaded for the three machine screws holding the lower gudgeon. It may be sorta glassed in. If your screws broke off in there, you may be able to get a vice grip on the inside end of each screw and crank it out from there. You might try a few squirts of penetrating lubricant before you try.

Now the disclaimer: I'm trying to remember this from a couple of years ago when I replaced the lower gudgeon, and I and my memory are probably a bit more feeble than you and yours... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 16:33:22

OK, I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I still have my eysight. Looking at the transom from the outside and judging the distances between the bottom of the boat and the bottom gudgeon mount and the positioning of the bilge outlet I could see exactly where the bolts should come through and theres nothing there. No bolts, no plate, no holes where the bolts may have come through broken off and dropped into the bilge. If thru-hull is the way it came from the factory it make me think a PO has done something different to it but like I said the glass inside looks factory.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 17:37:05

Derek, are you the original owner? Maybe the PO made them thru-hull, 'cause the factory glassed in a threaded bronze plate.

The threaded bronze plate is glassed in pretty deep. All you'll see is a bulge of fiberglass.

Charlie, check very carefully. You may not have broken the bolts. When I first bought my boat, I was replacing worn gudgeons. I removed the bolts (machine screws) and thought I had broken them off. The ends looked broken. It felt like they broke coming out. So I ground into the fiberglass from the inside. I found the bronze plate, removed it and the threaded holes were clean; no broken ends of bolts. All that work for nothin'. So I glassed in a piece of 3/4" marine plywood, drilled holes, thru-bolted the gudgeons and, to make myself feel better, told myself this is stronger anyway. But what a mess! I had fiberglass dust clear into the V berth - everywhere.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 18:14:57

John - I'm not the original owner of "TSU". I have to assume that the PO changed the gudgeon attachment method.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 18:21:22

"The threaded bronze plate is glassed in pretty deep. All you'll see is a bulge of fiberglass."

I'm sure thats what I'm seeing now on the inside of the transom, theres just not a bulge from the backing plate.
Also like I said earlier theres only 1/4" to 3/8" from the outside of the transom to what looks like broken off screws in the mounting holes. I can't imagine that being enough to hold the rudder on which is why I think they are broken off.
I think I'll try drilling them out this weekend just to see what I'm working with before I get crazy and start drilling holes in my transom.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

George Beck
1st Mate

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48 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 20:51:52

Charlie, I'm not sure why you are replacing the Gudgeons but you may be making a mountain out of a mole hill. I had some slop in the Pintles/Gudgeons and fixed it this spring by obtaining two brass bushings at Ace Hardward that fit on the Pintles and drilled out the opening on gudgeon to acomadate the difference in size of bushing. The bushings had a small lip that fit on top of Pintle to keep it from falling through. All this done with hardward on boat and of course I took off the rudder while on trailer to have accessibility. Biggest expense was the cost of I believe a 1/2in drill bit. All works fine with no slop at all now. Good luck.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 21:59:07

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Charlie, I'm not sure why you are replacing the Gudgeons but you may be making a mountain out of a mole hill.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
George... His bottom gudgeon came off--broken bolts... No steering... I'd classify that as a "mountain". <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Whether he replaces or just re-attaches it is a minor point.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Shawn
1st Mate

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62 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 22:12:46

Just an opinion. I had a lot of slop in my gudgeons when I bought my C25. I used the brass bushings as suggested earlier in this thread. Worked well for a season, but the soon wore and got sloppy. The whole rudder mount system looked a little weak to me anyway, so I started looking for alternatives. I came across the system used on J22's and J24's in the West Marine catalog. I liked the looks of the engineering in these a lot more than the original Catalina set up. I bought and installed them 3 or 4 years ago. I Love Em'. No slop, no worries about strength, all around peace of mind. Take a look at them. If you have to do the project anyway, why not make an improvement. Just an opinion.

Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

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