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comments from summer cruise

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/21/2003 : 22:46:20

We covered 750 miles this summer over 24 days of cruising. I have the account written but not polished so will let it set a few days before going back to it.

As usual there are a few interesting things to tell and share.

For the forum however there are three noteworthy items to chronical.

1. the steering conversion
2. taming the sailing on the anchor rode
3. the 2nd generation rudder outperformed the third

The steering conversion to the open cable system worked fantastic and flawless. The difference in the helm is phenominal. There is absolutely no play or drag and the change of steering ratio was exactly what was needed to tame the helm. For the first time, the autohelm could handle the boat on all points of sail and in all conditions. I received mail from an owner who had built the design while I was cruising and he affimed also a great improvement in the helm.

The riding sail I constructed was found to reduce the sailing on the rode by about 40%. Another 40% was reduced by making a bridle for the anchor rode by simply using a bowline with a bite in the rode so that the rode is loaded to both forward cleats. When starting to sail on a tack, the rode comes up on the opposite cleat and tends to pull the boat back to center line. Together they greatly eliminated sailing on the rode and limited it to the point that neither tack brought the boats beam to the point of causing the nasty roll associated with a boat that sails on her rode.

The 2nd generation rudder is more suited to an aggressive sailor who sails in more demanding conditons. The 3rd generation rudder simply does not have the control provided by the 2nd. I'm speaking of general sailing here rather than slow speed handling which could be better for the 3rd.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2003 : 11:42:34

Arlyn,

Good to hear everything went well. Sounds like you got more sailing in this year than last. Looking forward to the full report.

Interesting comments on the 2nd and 3rd rudder. Can you go into more detail?

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2003 : 12:48:06

Hi Arlyn,

Welcome back ... 'glad you had a great time! I'm looking forward to hearing more about your cruise.

I've been following your pull/pull steering mod since you first installed it. I was wondering ... is there any reason it wouldn't work on the after-market Edson wheel system on my C-25? A PO installed a wheel on my boat ... it's starting to give me problems ... I'm sure it's just a matter of time before it fails altogether. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

What are your thoughts?

Thanks!

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2003 : 13:49:42

Take a look at my web site and you will find all the details of the steering system including drawing, pictures of the components, and pictures of installation.

The design is tuned to work within the structure of the C250 but likely could work on other boats as well, perhaps with some adaptation.

Can't help but reccomend the system compared to replacing with sheathed cables. Mail from one owner, explained he built an open wire system even though it came with the pull-pull two cable system, doing so to eliminate drag and play.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2003 : 15:50:52

Bryan,

Here is a cut and paste from this years cruise log that may illustrate my point.

--------------------
Good winds pushed us south along the east coast of Manitoulin. Late in the afternoon we changed to a S/W course and a beam reach with moderate 12-14 mph winds and discovered that the autopilot couldn’t maintain the course. This had never happened. Before the 2nd generation rudder had been balanced, the autopilot would occasional jump teeth on the belt because of too much torque and unable to hold a course and a following sea was often too challenging for it to when seas were high… but these conditions were relatively benign. The pilot seemed to be over steering. The problem was discovered to be the pilot was driving the rudder far past centerline to leeward in an attempt to hold course during the not too strong puffs, which had it stalling and dragging a large wake unable to actually steer the course to leeward in resistance to the rounding up tendency. When the puff would subside, the boat would respond to the gross rudder position and lurch to leeward only to see the pilot then react and drive hard to windward. Every significant puff would renew the pilot–rudder battle though in a sense, the battle was between boat balance and the puffs.
I had thought when I first tried the 3rd generation rudder that it had less lift and control than the 2nd. This confirmed it and I resolved to change back to the 2nd for the Lake Huron crossing while anchored for the night at Rattlesnake Harbor.
-------------------------

The conditions in my opinion were getting close to needing a reef and in fact one was set later as winds continued to build. However, we had not heeled more than 20 degrees in any of the puffs. While I have no problem with reefing early and know very well that a reefed boat usually sails just as fast as an overpowered one... I want more forgivness than 20 degrees of heel and the 2nd generation gives that to me and the 3rd doesn't.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2003 : 12:56:29

Arlyn, sounds like you had a great trip. Looking foward (as usual) to reading more about it!
I just wondered about your explanation about the bridle you mentioned while at anchor. Do you have a photo or drawing to better explain the set up. Any help in reducing the sailing at anchor is always welcome!
Also, in your opinion, do you feel the wheel vs. tiller has anything to do with your rudder handling preference?

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2003 : 16:05:28

Suzie,

Yes, the cruise was great and the log is progressing... the story is written, and proof read twice. Some of the pictures have been placed... but Lin had some snaps that she took with a standard camera and some need to be scanned and added.

The story seemed to be near ready... However, it is lenghty, so I broke it up into parts and need to do an abridgement. Part of the length is do to intrinsics about the c250 that I wanted to share with the c250 community. Others will feel it too long and laborious so an abridgement is needed and hoped to be offered at the same time.

I will do a tech tip on the bridle with pics.

Your last question is an interesting one and has many tangents that could be explored. First, the wheel has in the past offered play and drag to the steering process. Those are of course not pluses... and those are gone now for me. A tiller in my opinion didn't suffer from helm problems on the c250 near as bad as the wheel did in part because of those two items and the third being leverage. A tiller provides a lot more leverage than the wheel did. That is one of the reasons I changed the steering ratio when converting to open wires.

It was my feeling that a tiller was probably the best choice but I'm not unhappy now with the wheel and have stated often that I really like the standing exercise the wheel provides during cruising. I've also related how I came to have the wheel after deciding to go tiller.

Now to your question. That the c250 needs sailed flat to avoid rounding up issues, is no longer news. However, I don't think that 20 degrees of heel limit provides an adequate forgivness zone for puffs and vairable winds. This was very much a problem of the first generation rudder which couldn't hold control in any thing above 15 degrees and left the c250 water ballast with a first impression stigma. I remember well my first sail and saying, "Holy Smokes".

The 2nd generation was released to get control... and it did but at a huge requirement of torque. Why the 2nd was produced as an unbalanced design mystifies me. Its lift ability provides control to 40 degrees which is a good point to let the boat forgive and round up. The wide forgiveness zone was/is needed on a tender boat.

But, the torque issue was drastic, especially on the wheel boat and more especially on those equipped also with the beaching rudder as the hold down system didn't work well and allowed the unbalanced condition to become even more severe. The response was to produce another rudder, the 3rd was born.

I had talked with Gerry Douglas and shared that balancing the 2nd had cured the helm problems... but there were other issues. 1. The 2nd was too long as it protruded below the wing keel and was subject to damage by the wing clearing the bottom and the rudder hitting which of course was an issue for the blade rudder. 2. Catalina wanted to drop the beaching rudder, the hold down system wasn't working well and I think corrosion had become an issue as well. 3. My technique to balance the 2nd only worked easily on the beaching for which they wanted to discontinue. So... the 3rd was born.

It was balanced to satisfy the torque issue and shortened by 17.5 inches. In order to provide maximum lift for the size, it was designed with a thick high aspect ratio foil.

Ok...I'm now to the point. 17.5 inches of depth is a lot and as per Gerry Douglas's confession, even more dependent on limiting heel as significant heel would provide inadequate rudder surface immersed. In a sense then... Catalina is saying, flat is a requirement for handling this boat. My argument is that flat is a nice dream... for the more aggressive sailor on more aggressive waters. And...I don't think it makes any difference how the 3rd generation rudder is handled...wheel or tiller, it has inadequate lift to provide an adequate forgivness zone. Puffs, variable winds and seas are part of sailing that aren't going away.

Certainly the wheel steering with the flexible cable linkage was a problem with the 2nd generation rudder in an unbalanced form. The 3rd solved the torque issues.

Here are a few reccomendations and its very important to remember that my perspective comes from aggresive sailing on larger bodies of water. My needs are not the same as everyone elses. For aggressive sailing or those who cruise larger bodies of water and will rely on the auto pilot... stay with or find a 2nd generation rudder. The beaching model is more easily balanced and would provide forgivness on the wing keel boat but in salt water stick with a blade rudder. Those with the wheel...do the conversion to open cables that have no drag or play and have double the steering ratio.

Those who sail on smaller lakes will not have the need for as much forgivness zone especially where the bottom is mud, the 3rd should be fine. Wow...this got longer than it perhaps needed to be.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2003 : 19:20:18

Arlyn,

As always your comments are interesting and educational.

A couple thoughts of mine.

There is a big difference between the two 2nd generation rudders. The 2nd gen. rudder that came with my 2000wk was a blade about 2" longer than the 3rd. Your 2nd gen-beaching rudder to my knowledge was never offered on the wing keel or has the wk had a rudder that was deeper than the wing. After more thought I don’t remember the wing keel being delivered with anything but the 2nd gen. non-beaching rudder and starting in 2001 the 3rd generation rudder. I could be mistaken; those are the only 2 rudders I remember.

As I have mentioned in other threads I did not notice a big difference if handling between the 2 rudders. I have only sailed on small bodies of water and I don’t see in the near future going to any bigger bodies of water and I would consider myself more of an aggressive sailor than not (of course that is with no kids or wife on the boat. When they are there I seem to be more conservative) so saying I have not had any of the problems with the 3rd gen rudder or the pull, pull wheel steering system that you experienced probably is not a shock. Maximum speed with my boat is at heel angels 25 degrees or lower. I do sail at heel angels more than 25 degrees with no problem of rounding up or over torque on the wheel.

I have not studied your open cable system but if I remember correctly you upgraded to the open wire from the push pull system?

Is the time line on Catalina discontinuing the 2nd gen. beaching rudder about the same time the wing keel model was introduced? If so I can see why they did that it’s cheaper to have 1 rudder that would work for both boats than a different one for each.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2003 : 23:58:22

I'd thougth that the beaching rudder had been an option for both boats for a while but could be wrong. The beaching was discontinued about the time the 3rd was in design not because of cost associated with two rudders but because Catalina and Edson (I'm guessing) felt the beaching was being used wrongly and causing steering cable failures. I make the guess based on the fact that the wheel was removed from the offering for a short while.

Edson must have agreed to redesign away from the push pull cable before the wheel was offered again or maybe even suggested this to Catalina. Catalina in turn, might have decided to abandon the beaching so that the headaches associated with the wheel/beaching rudder would go away. BTW, Catalina had the opinion that a lot of the failures resulted because owners were operating the rudders in a swept back position. I tried to persuade Gerry Douglas that the problem was more likely because the rudders were raking back too far because of the poorly designed rudder hold down system. Well, that was his design likely and I'm not sure he wanted to accept that. At any rate... the beaching rudder was dropped and its unfortunate. I think a beaching rudder is a strong asset to a trailer sailor boat.

The clarification that the 2nd beaching was significantly longer than the 2nd blade is very interesting. I had made a simple assumption that they were the same length. The 1st generation was in the ballpark of being a couple of inches longer than the 3rd but I really don't think hull #495 would have had a 1st. Your comment causes me to wonder if the 2nd generation itself had itterations or perhaps different lengths for the two boat models.

As your two rudders were about the same length... I can understand little performance difference excepting of course the torque differences because of the 3rd being balanced.

Wings started being offered in mid '96... I talked to Gerry Douglas about the need to balance the rudder right after my '99 summer cruise. He told me then that the third was in the design process and that it would not be produced in a beaching and that the beaching would be discontinued.

I would enjoy sailing a wing keel some day to compare the feel. Maybe next summer if the Canyon Lake regatta happens.

I certainly agree about sailing a boat with less heel for faster speeds... And, based on your comments I modify my reccomendation to opt for a 2nd generation rudder over a third unless the 2nd is significantly longer than the 3rd as is my case and the boat doesn't provide the desired forgivness zone wished for or renders the autopilot ineffective.

Yes, my steering mod was to replace the push-pull system but would work on a pull pull as well if the play or drag were unsatisfactory or the steering ratio was wanted changed. As I stated earlier, mail last fall from an owner that had pull pull, offered that his play and drag were too much to suit him and he changed to an open wire linkage. The mail I received recently offering that they had built my steering design related that they were using a 2nd generation rudder on a center board boat and to quote them,"The difference is so dramatic that I would encourage anyone with the old cable system to switch."

Again, I've never helmed a boat with the pull pull so can't compare. However, Both Art(my often cruising crew) and I agree that the helm on my c250 is many folds better now and even much better than that on the C30 that we used to sail often.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2003 : 13:08:31

Here's my nickel worth on the subject. During this summers cruise on the Chesapeake, Lady Kay was weighted down to the waterline with people and stuff.

She handled much better. Much less tendency to round up, and the ability to carry more sail in higher winds. She was stable, and tracked better.

Most of the weight was forward of the companion way, which I know has been offered as a way to improve handling. It is also possible that the extra two-three inches of (3rd gen.) rudder in the water made enough of a difference.

Maybe it's worth it to construct a simple, short, bolt on extension for the rudder and have it make enough of a difference.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 08/25/2003 13:12:08

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