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Storing a Swing Keel C25

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paking
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/29/2003 : 14:43:27

Hi,

I've started talking to the boat yard about haul out and storage for the winter. They expressed concerns for the swing keel, and said they wouldnt
want to store it on boat stands, and thought I should buy a trailer.

I am pretty sure there are other SKs that get stored on stands. Am I wrong about this? If so, does anyone know of a good boat yard in the Falmouth MA area?

Thanks for your help. -Pat King

Pat King Red Skies '83 SR/SK

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 15:06:28

Hi Pat, welcome to the club.

The one thing to be sure NOT to do is rest the hull on the keel. Shore up the boat all about and then release the keel a few (6/10)inches. Improper storage has precipitated more grief with swing keel boats than,perhaps, any other maintenance proceedure. The advice to store it on a trailer is half way good. When on a trailer the boat should come to rest on the hull supports and then the keel released to sit on a platform used for just such an occasion.

Good luck

Val on Calista # 3936

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 17:24:09

Sounds funny to me. Put her on the stands first. Then lower the keel part way down onto a wooden block. I see it in the yard I use.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

triley
Captain

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USA
251 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 17:46:32

They must have some strange rules there. The only problem I could see is if the cable broke before you owered it after it was on the stands. I am sure there is no problem if the keel is partly lowered and properly rested on something that won't sink. Then you have to remember to take it up before the sling is put under her in the spring. Maybe they are worried about sling placement.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 20:18:19

With the keel up I wouldn't store it on stands either.. With the keel lowered to a block of wood or other rest, I'd think it would be fine.

Don't know what your sailing venue is like or if you have any inclination to trailer, but having a trailer will sure open lots of other waters for you.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 21:23:40

Hi Pat,

I agree with the thought that your boat will be fine if you rest the keel on a solid block or something once the boat is on stands. We have had our boat out on stands for bottom jobs several times. On each occasion I lowered the keel to sit on a block of wood and spent quite a bit of time under the boat.

I feel a swing keel boat stored this way may be more stable than a fixed keel boat. With a fixed keel you cannot transfer the weight from the hull once sitting on stands or a trailer. I really like the idea of getting a boat sitting securely on stands or a trailer then letting the wieght off the hull by lowering the keel.

This is about the only thing I believe I am really going to miss after our conversion from swing to wing keel.

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade
80 C25 #2126 sr/sk
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d636b3127cce8c9d4c83e7890000002010" border=0>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 21:44:40

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>With a fixed keel you cannot transfer the weight from the hull once sitting on stands or a trailer. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

When my FK C25 sits in the cradle, the bottom of the keel is on the cradle where it is taking most of the weight and the four hull pads are mainly there for balance.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 23:31:22

Don,
Your statement that the keel carries most of the weight and the chocks on the hull are for balancing the boat doesn't sound right to me. IMHO, the hull isn't designed to rest on the keel, it is designed to carry or hold that weight up. I wouuld try to spread the load evenly among all of the chocks. Having said this, the boatyard I use always sets the boat up on the chocks with a block of wood under the keel. I don't know their formula for weight distribution, just offering an opinion.

Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 23:55:07

Shawn,

According to Brownell Boatstands http://www.boatstands.com,

<img src="http://www.boatstands.com/newboat.jpg" border=0>

"Keel Blocking: We always recommend a minimum of 2 blocking piles placed on hard, stable ground to carry the boat's weight."

and from their do's and don'ts list...

Do not use boat stands to suspend a boat in mid-air.
Use blocking along centerline of the boat to rest all of the boat's weight on.

Additionally from a SailNet article titled "Winter Storage",

<img src="http://www.sailnet.com/images/content/authors/jsmith/100600_JS_poppits.jpg" border=0>

"Yard storage - Once you have chosen a marina that meets your requirements and have set a date, the marina will haul out your boat, place it ashore in a cradle, and then pressure wash the bottom to remove barnacles and other debris. A cradle constructed of metal or wood, or a set of metal poppits, supports the critical areas of the hull—the bulkhead areas, keel, and engine. Be certain the keel rests solidly on the main beam, since the vertical risers are only stabilizers. In yards where boats sit on a soil or gravel surface, which softens when it gets wet, the yard should place plywood beneath each poppit stand and chain the stands together to assure the assembly will remain balanced and in place.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 08/30/2003 00:41:41

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Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2003 : 01:16:53

Don,
Your right, I'm wrong. Thanks for the info

Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

Edited by - on

frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2003 : 17:58:39

Hi Pat

make sure the yard puts chains around the stancions. Last year with all the snow, the ground became unstable in my yard and a boat fell off its supports.

My yard also requires my mast be taken down, otherwise I assume the liability should a mishap occur

Frank R
84 C25 SK

Edited by - frich on 08/31/2003 18:03:04

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2003 : 19:26:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I really like the idea of getting a boat sitting securely on stands or a trailer then letting the wieght off the hull by lowering the keel.

This is about the only thing I believe I am really going to miss after our conversion from swing to wing keel.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Chris: If you store on a trailer, the bunks/rollers should be adjusted so the keel is on the rest, and the bunks are snug to the hull, but not holding any significant weight--i.e., not lifting the keel off the rest. If you store in a yard, they will adjust the stands or cradle the same way. The keel will be the primary support point.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2003 : 03:29:50

SO??? What is the answer? I am fortunate enough to own a trailer for my swinger. But, if one is not to rest the weight of the boat on the swing keel, and jack stands are not to support the weight of the boat (I agree), then what's a fellow to do?

I HAVE jacked up a swing keel numerous times off the rollers on the trailer and supported the hull on 4 one foot square carpeted pads, then lowered the keel to get some of the weight off them. I have seen no serious flexing or other problems on 70's vintage boats, but I wouldn't have wanted it to sit like that all winter!

I am still waiting for the answer to this dilemma.....somebody must have THE answer!

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2003 : 09:29:20

The one and only time I saw a C-25 swinger stored in a yard, the keel was fully retracted (meaning horizontal) and sitting on blocks, and the boat was held up by 5 jack stands. I don't know whether the swinger was meant to have that much upward pressure on the keel trunk, but that's what they did. (My FK is stored the same way.)

The alternative is to support much more weight (about 3300#) on the stands with about half the weight of the keel supported by a block at its end. If you do the latter, I'd suggest 3-4 stands on each side, simulating the support of trailer bunks.

Either way, for hauling and launching, I'd suggest fully raising the keel, running a stout line or strap under it, and tying it off over the cockpit or whatever. If the motion of the travel-lift caused the cable to break, the keel would fall even harder than it would in the water.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/01/2003 09:33:25

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NuNees
Navigator

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USA
125 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2003 : 13:01:34

Pat King, Gary B,
It looks to me as though the confusion relates to the differences between a Swing Keel and the Fin/Wing Keel boats. persomanally I would not want to stand my swinger up on the extended keel. It seems that the pivot bolt mounting is way too small to support the weightr of the boat. Whereas the weight of the boat, spread out over the longer length if the Fin/Wing keel mounting, would be appropriate. I can't say if there are any other structuraal differences between our swingers and the others.
It seems (IMHO) as though the technique of supporting the hull with a pattern of stands similar to the trailer rollers or bunks would work. Then lowering the weight of the keel to blocks would be vital to stabilize the rig.
I'm going to have to try this as I want to do a proper bottom job this year, and the triler is really in the way.
Has anyone else done this cradle or stand technique?
What does the factory say the construction differences between the swinger and the others?

Bill jaworowski,
Moonbeams.
C25 SK/SR #4953
Sailing Lake Carlyle, IL.

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2003 : 22:55:32

[/quote]
Chris: If you store on a trailer, the bunks/rollers should be adjusted so the keel is on the rest, and the bunks are snug to the hull, but not holding any significant weight--i.e., not lifting the keel off the rest. If you store in a yard, they will adjust the stands or cradle the same way. The keel will be the primary support point.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT
[/quote]

Dave,
Thanks for your input. We are lucking enough to be able to keep our boat in the water most of the time. When we make the conversion from swing to wing, however, I plan to adjust the rollers on my trailer to accommodate the new keel. I have been giving this a great deal of thought and really appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade
80 C25 #2126 sr/sk
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d636b3127cce8c9d4c83e7890000002010" border=0>

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Steve Shetter
1st Mate

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USA
60 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2003 : 15:01:28

This Spring, I spent a lot of time under my 1981 SK/TR while refinishing the bottom. The po had not maintained it at all over the last several (?) years and the bottom wass terribly blistered. During the entire process, we had her hung from sling straps and supported by a couple of stands. After getting her "aloft", we lowered the keel onto a small piece of wood until the keel cable was slack. The boat builder's theory is that the weight of the boat on the slings and stands will not cause excessive flexing or strain and the weight of the keel on the ground (garage floor) will eliminate any additional stresses to the hull and the keel bolt. It made sense tome and worked perfectly.

By the way, if anyone's interested, I reached 7.1 GPS mph this last weekend and it was wonderful.

Steve Shetter
"At Last"
#2381

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 13:21:25

When I bought my '83 swinger, she was sitting in a boat yard with keel retracted, on a couple of heavy planks and four jack stands. She might have been there a year or two. Do you think my keel pin was compromised by this mis-treatment? Is there a way to know without removing the keel?

Bruce Baker
Falls Church, VA
"Yee Ha" 3573
'83SR/SK

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 14:23:05

This one is not too hard to visualize. IF you have a fixed keel boat, it is designed to sit on land with the weight of the boat taken by the keel and the "poppets" or jackstands or cradle taking enough weight to secure the boat and support the hull so that it stays fair, but the major support is provided by sitting on the keel. In the old days when we worked on wood boats, even support and considerable cradling were crucial to maintaining the fair lines of the hull and preventing "hogging" or other nightmares. A centerboard/keel boat, such as a modern O'Day, say, was to be treated the same because the major ballast weight is in the keel, and the centerboard is not designed to provide static stability, but rather only DIRECTIONAL stability, that is, to go to windward. I used to have a keel/cenerboard Grampian that sailed pretty well without the centerboard down at all. Our swingers, on the other hand, have the ballast weight in the swing keel. That weight should by all means be supported on the ground by some blocking, and be careful about the blocking's tendency to sink over a winter. The hull weight should be as evenly distributed on jackstands or whatever supports youi use, as possible to prevent distortion to the hull. I have seen fiberglass hulls improperly blocked that had a great deal of distortion and "oilcanning" and if the bad support comes right next to an internal bnulkhead, the hull can (and will) actually crack. Hope this helps, ron srsk #2343 Orion SW FL

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paking
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 21:44:53

Thanks for all the great responses!

I actually looking into a trailer, but either way I'll know what should be done.

Pat

Pat King Red Skies '83 SR/SK

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steephen
Navigator

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100 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 19:26:04

I bought "Little Wing" after she'd sat on jackstands for at least five years. Some weight was taken off the keel by loosening the cable and setting the keel down on blocks; the keel was probably down a few inches. The hull had six jackstands, and I added two more; my guess was that the proper place for the extra two was right fore and aft of the keel trunk. There were no problems when I launched the boat, and so I plan the same routine when I take her out this fall. Does anyone see anything wrong with "the more stands, the better?"
Stephen Z.

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JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 10:17:57

This is great reading and information. Can you recommend a manufacturer /model of jackstands for the 25 SW and name some prices?
Mine is hauled every year and put up by the marina on makeshift props/stands. Not too comforting an arrangement.
The "hull weight on stands /keel partially dropped on support" technique sounds sound. As imporatnt, it permits you to replace the cable every year (a few dollars more for peace of mind), and - assuming your stands provide for enough clearance) lets you lower the keel (via threaded rod method discussed elsewhere)enough to expose the pin/bearing assembly for inspection.

Joerg
86C25 SR-SK Second Wind
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d632b3127cce8cc1e80685990000000010" border=0>

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