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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/14/2003 : 12:55:21

On Friday, my nine-year old son ADAMANTLY declared his end-of-season burnout. He has been "forced" to go to the lake on his every other weekend with Dad, because I go to the lake every weekend. It has been an on-going battle every Friday, but he seems to mostly have fun fishing, swimming and sailing once he's there. Claims of being too hot, bored, and tired of the cuisine don't come until the Friday two weeks later or until he's talking to his Grandmother.

When we are out sailing, no amount of encouragement will get him out of the cabin or participating in the actual sailing of the vessel. Not fear, just lack of interest. He prefers to look out the ports or read and play in the V-berth.

As I've told him, sailing IS my life now, but I don't want it to be unpleasant for him or to affect our relationship. So, I'm interested in others' thoughts on how to get and keep children enthused about going to the boat and sailing. Or, am I just fighting a losing battle.

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 13:03:07

JB
You might try letting him drive. Not with you sitting next to him but tell him you need him to drive so you can trim the sails. You’ll still be close enough if he crash tacks.
I ask all non sailors to drive so they get the feel of the boat moving through the water and have some control over this strange environment they are in.
Quite honestly being a passenger on a boat IS a bore. Driving is fun.
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - John G- on 09/14/2003 13:04:48

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 13:33:26

One word: Sunfish.

A C-25 is not fun sailing for a kid. A Sunfish puts him in control, lets him feel the acceleration and speed, get a little wet, learn about jibes and tacks, and even dump the boat, right it, and take off again. He can take a friend out with him and have a blast! All for a couple of boat units in the classified ads. (My daughter paid half, and it became her boat.)

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/14/2003 13:35:11

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 13:44:24

Thanks, John. I tried that a year ago, but unfortunately he got very frustrated with not being able to see over the cabin and not being able to coordinate the reverse hand-eye conundrum (i.e., tiller steering). So, he has refused to even try since then. However, he'll be two years older and quite a bit taller by next spring, which would probably be a good time to try again. Just might be the thing, and, as you suggest, I'm sure I can find a handful of situations that "require" him to steer. Although, he's quick enough to figure that out, since he's seen me do it all alone for two seasons. <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good idea, Dave. Unfortunately, there are logistical problems that currently eliminate that as an option for us. In a couple of years, perhaps.

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 14:03:47

I like Dave's idea.

I raised one son. He and I raced Hobie Cats between his 10-16 years. It worked well...but flew only because... 2/3rds of those racing/camping weekends... he had a friend with him.

In thinking of what Dave wrote... Recalling...

Occasionally the Commodore of the Hobie Fleet would trail a small Holder to the lake behind his Hobie Cat... Eric and which ever friend he had with him would have a blast with it. They also enjoyed taking the helm of the Hobie Cat but I think had their best fun off by themselves with the Holder.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 09/14/2003 14:33:14

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Bryan Beamer
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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 14:14:18

For the non-sailing, swimming or fishing times we have DirecTV on the boat (dish mounted to the dock) it keeps the boredom of my 13 year old boy and 8 year old girl to a minimum. We usually go out to eat at a local restaurant every other weekend.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 15:05:28

My wife and our son never got too involved in the boat. I sailed alone a lot. Some of the reasons were the same you have mentioned ... hot weather, boredom and, the fact was, I just didn't know how to sail well enough to keep everyone comfortable in gusty winds and a choppy lake.

Our son is now grown, living on his own. When his mom told him how well I control the boat in gusty winds (reef, furl), that we don't raise our voices or loose patience he tried again. When we sail that is all we do. No chores, no projects, no hanging around the club. A couple hours sailing. He mans the tiller, I set the sails and look after the boat. If we start to heel...I shorten sail. If we aren't enjoying the day, we come back to the slip and go to our favorite cafe.

He enjoys it. I enjoy his company and the boat is just the boat. Not my life. The wife sails with me most of the time now. She is encouraged by the improvement(s) in sailing comfort and we are serious about extended cruising during our not too distand retirement years. Believe me... we will take our time on that long gentle arc of a learning curve. Mustn't screw it up because, if succesful, that will be our life.
Go back. Try it again with your son. Cut out all the sailing stuff that is about you and your boat. Try to arrange it so the boat is ready to shove off when the two of you arrive. Sail a while. Find a spot you both enjoy. Maybe invite one friend along for company and most important, make Grand Lake and events there more the focus than the boat. Sail over to Grove (OK) for lunch ... or the movies, or an arcade ... sail across to Monkee Island to check out the... (well check out the family activities) ... the point is to make the boat the vehicle to somewhere instead of it being the destination itself.
We know how boats attract our affections but many others just don't share our feelings. I am careful not to force boating upon unwilling ears. No formal words ("please hand me that rope on your left...." ... "just pull the back of this big sail's rope around this gadget here...") and guess what, occasionally folks want to know what it is really called. When they ask, you tell them ... forcing it on them alienates your guests. Makes them feel inferior or less intelligent and guess what else...? It makes us singlehanders, whether we want to be or not.
Good luck

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 18:31:55

J.B.

Having a nine year old son myself, I think it's mostly 'inner being.' My son, Tanner, seems to be a natural sailor. He loves everything about the boat, whatever the circumstancs. He is just as happy going out to the lake with me to clean her, work on her or sail her, whether it's raining, hot, cold, windy or flat calm. Actually, when the wind starts dying down and I'm ready to call it a day, HE'S the one coaxing ME to "stay out a little longer" because "you never know what will happen."

Involvement is right up his alley. He can start the motor, back her off the trailer (can't quite put her to the dock), open and close the WB flood valve, tie her to the dock, cover/uncover the sail, coil lines, tend the jib, winch the main and steer her to no end (as long as the winds aren't too strong)! Having wheel steering seems to help some in the steering department. That was actually a big part of my reason for getting the wheel.

All of that being said, his 13 year old sister, Dana, loves the boat, but really only when the wind is strong. Otherwise, she is content to sit at the mast with a book or just hang her feet off of the transom. I suppose everyone is different. She has the same opportunities as her brother, but just doesn't have a desire to act upon them.

Now, Mom is yet another story. . . bless her heart, she's tried and tried, but just can't get into the boating thing. We've come to the mutual agreement that she's welcome to come any time she'd like, but I won't ask her to. . . and she no longer asks me to go with her to the fabric store and quilt shows!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d608b3127cce8dd11c37790c0000001010" border=0>

Bren Peterson
C250WB, #642, "Ruah"
San Antonio, TX

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d735b3127cce8e38a24643a40000001610" border=0>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d735b3127cce8e38a25843ba0000001610" border=0>

Edited by - bren737 on 09/14/2003 18:42:21

Edited by - bren737 on 09/14/2003 20:15:54

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 19:12:12

Opened a real can of worms feeling sorry for myself on a beautiful, sunny, warm, breezy day toward the end of the season, didn't I?

Mark - I mis-spoke, and may have caused a false impression. My son is well aware that he is absolutely the first priority in my life, and that sailing is my life when he's not around, which will undoubtedly become more frequent as he grows older. Additionally, the original reason for getting the boat was to provide him and me a place to go and something to do away from homework, piano practice, Nintendo, WORK at home, house cleaning, laundry, bills, etc. And, I've religously held to that objective; no projects when he's at the boat, we fish together (i.e., I spend hours baiting hooks and releasing fish), we swim and float together, and we sail together.

Bren - I think you've hit the nail on the head. Parent-Child relationships are a lot like Husband-Wife relationships, aren't they? You just can't expect the other to embrace your passions as adamantly as you do. You're extremely lucky if they do, as apparently you are with your son and I was with my Dad. Otherwise, it's a matter of balancing personal needs with compromise and sacrifice for the sake of the relationship.

There have been some hopeful glimmers, such as when a month after getting the boat my best friend asked my son what was best about it, and my son replied, "It's just me and my Dad together alone." Or, once this summer when he looked up and said, "The wind's picking up, Dad, let's go sailing." Maybe time is all that's needed.

Thanks for your thoughts and for indulging my self-pity today. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 21:35:22

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Maybe time is all that's needed.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Precisely. Nine is little, and there are lots of changes coming. They'er coming fast, so embrace everything you have now and give the rest just a little time. Before you know it, he'll be trying to get you to crew on his Evelyn, and you'll be saying, "Son, I just don't know whether the old knees can handle it..."<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 21:44:07

J.B. (and others):

I have three children: Sarah is 24 and married, Drew is 21, Ben is 17. Of the three, Drew is the only one who loves to sail. I got the Catalina after Sarah left for college, but she did sail some in the Mobjack before that. Ben has never liked sailing in any degree.

It sounds as though there are some good signs -- when he tells you the wind is good for sailing. But it also sounds as though what he enjoys is being with you, and not the sailing. That's pretty good, and enjoy it for what it is. Maybe what you should do is ask him to show you how to do some of the things he likes -- like playing Nintendo with him (which makes me cringe -- I absolutely loathe everything about video games).

My father's great passion was flying, and he wanted me to share it with him. I had my student license before I could drive. When I finally soloed,what I had fantasized for fifteen years to be the greatest experience in my life turned out to be pretty disappointing. My father never understood when a year later I decided I really didn't care about flying any more. I wish he had taken the time to really talk to me about what I liked doing.

I would respectfully suggest that you not divide your first priorities into whether your son is around or not. If you are really, really lucky, you will only have him around for another nine years. He (and his mother?) are your first priorities, no matter how much you like sailing. I love sailing enormously, but I bought my first boat with the wholehearted support of my wife and children.

Years ago before I lived near the water, I was very involved in photography. I had a darkroom in the basement, and spent many happy and creative hours there. As my work life increased and I had less and less time at home, I realized I needed to make a choice between spending my free time alone in a darkroom or with my family. The darkroom was sold, lock, stock, and enlarger. Years later when I bought the boat, it was as a family activity (though I often sail alone).

I'm not telling you to sell the boat (although that's not out of the question). I do strongly encourage you to enjoy your son and his passions for who he is and they are. That will be the far greater blessing. And, who knows: when your son begins to understand you love him for who he uniquely is, he might discover your passions are pretty wonderful, too.

Best of luck!

Brooke

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 22:37:31

My daughters (12 and 14) sit in the salon and play Gameboys when we sail. They only come up if there are whales, dolphins, seals or the like. I've tried everything, but they are really not that interested in sailing.

However

They love cruising and like exploring, hiking, driving the dinghy, paddling the kayak, playing on the beach, collecting shells.

I like getting there. They like the destinations. I guess that's just the way it is going to be for us.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 23:04:03

Thanks, Brooke. I was hoping, after I read about your day, that you wouldn't read this thread. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> In retrospect, my original post really comes off sounding very selfish, which I suppose it is.

I didn't, and won't, go into all the particulars here, but the situation is substantially more complex than just Nintendo versus sailing, of course.

I thoroughly enjoyed playing Nintendo with him the first gazillion times, but an adult can only take so much Mario Cart Racing. <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> Amazingly after three years, Nintendo remains his hands-down activity of choice. In other words, he is as passionate about Nintendo as Bren's son, Tanner, is about sailing.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I would respectfully suggest that you not divide your first priorities into whether your son is around or not.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Unfortunately for the two of us, our time together has been forcefully rent in half. So there is no way to avoid having a "with" and a "without" life. Therefore, my biggest problem with the Nintendo is that he's here, but he's not. Which was the original purpose of the boat, time together would really be time together. Again, not to get into the particulars, but sailing (i.e., Antares, nature, marina-mates, projects and actually sailing) has also come to fill the hole for me during the time he's away and to meet other needs that can't readily be met in any other way in Tulsa.

Maybe I'll just install a damned Nintendo and generator on the boat, and be happy that, even if he's not involved, at least he's nearby. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 07:12:43

J.B.:

if your time has been "rent in half," I get the picture, and I'm so sorry (for you and for my accusation). And I can't handle the first Mario Cart Racing, much less the gazillionth. Cheers to you for having been there and done that.

When it's all said and done, what your son will remember is that you and he were together when you were together, and that is everything. Some parents and children never share that in an undivided household.

Just keep your eyes and ears and heart open, and you (and he) will discover the connections beyond Mario and Luigi. You both will be in my prayers.

And, I'm glad you have the boat for your own healing!

Brooke

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 10:45:41

After reading this thread, although not in microscopic detail, I moved on and thought I'd stay out of it. But, after mulling it over for a while, I decided that my thoughts might add some inspiration. If not to those involved, maybe to other, silent, readers.

First, split parenting is one of the hardest, at times most hartbreaking, things to do, even under the best of circumstances. I know numerous people caught in this boat, many at work, some outside of the cockpit. It is one thing to provide for the needs of the developing child, it's another to do it with one hand tied behind your back, or worse, dodging bullets from the ex-from-hell. One very good friend no longer saw the light at the end of the tunnel and, in his convoluted thinking, figured that removing himself, literally, would ease things up for those left behind. One of the key ingredients to raising children successfully is consistency, and the split scenario makes that very, very difficult. I don't wish it on anyone, and those that are faced with it through no fault of their own, have my sympathy.

I was lucky. Although I learnt by trial and error what incompatable spouses (pl.) look like I did not end up with prior offspring. Running aground, but floating off. Then I met Lady K, who did not know the first thing about sailboats. At this point dating more becomes like a romantic form of "due dilligence", and part of the sea trial (pun intended) was roaming around Lake Erie for days in......a rented J22. A small V-berth with pseudo cushions and a compression post down the middle. That was it. But, we had a ball, and I said "Yes".

So the fact that there was going to be sailing in our lives was a pre-nuptial given. Lady K. does not helm, winch, or halyard, but she does enjoy being out there. The more creature comforts I provide, the happier she is. And, the kids are coming too. One parenting "trick" is to offer choices. The answer to the question "Do you want vegetables?" is always "No." The question to ask is"Do you want beans or carrots?" or......"shall we go North or South?" We are gong sailing, period. Kids do not set the agenda.

Lady K is the best mother in the world and keeps the kids entertained. We bring hundreds (you think I'm kidding?) of pounds of books, crayons, toys etc. I sail, she keeps the kids happy....and she does a great job.

THERE ARE NO VIDEO GAMES ANYWHERE IN THE HOUSE, CARS OR BOAT. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. THERE IS NO TUBE ON THE BOAT, THERE ARE NO TUBES IN THE CAR. Bring a book, or three. We do watch an occasional video at home and then the thing gets turned off.

I explain how things work, but don't force the issue. (They are 5 and 12 btw.) My daughter is smart and understands, but not fascinated. I know that the little guy has all the makings of a helmsman. (As a kid I would steer for 8 or more hours at a stretch.) We do use the correct terms on board. The seed is planted, we've given them a taste. Later in life they can decide for themselves.

We adjust the program as neccessary. If it was me, we'd cover 1500 miles in ten day's, that's a recipe for trouble. With kids you have to ease up. We sail, and then we spend a day in a Museum and walking around a waterfront town. Or, we drop a hook and float off a beach. The bottom line is that we are spending quality time, together as a family, with little or no interference from the outside world. That is valuable, and the kids are learning to do the same.

Hope someone gets something out of our approach.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 09/15/2003 11:05:48

Edited by - Oscar on 09/15/2003 11:23:40

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 11:16:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
You both will be in my prayers.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks, Brooke. I very much appreciate that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
And, I'm glad you have the boat for your own healing!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

When the ability to control any other aspect of your life has been stripped away, being Skipper, even when alone, takes on special significance.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
We are gong sailing, period. Kids do not set the agenda.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Oscar, I agree wholeheartedly for unbroken homes. However, my comment directly above takes on special significance for children of divorce.

Thanks again for all your thoughts, ideas, interest and concern.

Now, I'd prefer to close Pandora's Box and discuss sailing. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 11:55:09

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I like getting there. They like the destinations. I guess that's just the way it is going to be for us.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think that is pretty common.

It reminds me of when I was a kid my parents would drag the whole family (4 boys) on week-long backpacking trips into the Wallawa Mountains (NE Oregon). Once we bumped into a forest ranger, who was surprised to see someone (my little brother) so young (about 5) that far back in. He asked him how he liked backpacking -- my brother responded, "it's pretty fun, except for the walking part".

While today I am super greatful that my parents took the time and energy to do those trips, I think back then I felt the same way as my little brother. So today I try to be sensative to my wife's and daughters' (2 and 4) less than enthusiastic feelings about the "get'n there part" of sailing. That means they usually don't want to come on day-sails because there is no "there" (other than where you start from). And on overnight cruises, enroute if they want to simply veg-out below and do nothing but watch Disney videos, I don't complain and am greatful that they are along and will hopefully have a great time once we get "there". Also, I start the engine with a big smile when my wife gets impatient in light-air conditions.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 15:06:03

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Also, I start the engine with a big smile when my wife gets impatient in light-air conditions. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

O yeah, that's the 1.5 knot rule.....under that, it's battery charging time. Especially if it's hot.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 15:50:44

Some nice sentiments here... And Bren, frame those shots! Those are lifetime keepers!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 16:16:35

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>the 1.5 knot rule<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Wow! Lady K is a lot more patient than my wife...who pretty much sticks to the 4 knot rule.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 19:46:44

We discussed this thread briefly at dinner. My daughters informed me that I lied, that they love sailing just as much as the destination.

However, in my view what they love is sitting in the salon, giggling, reading, playing games, snoozing, eating, popping up to look at sea life, and going to adventourous places (slowly).

If this is "sailing" to them then I guess I should just count my blessings, beg their forgiveness, and shut up. Who cares if they can take the helm, get the anchor up, or reef in under 2 minutes? I like doing those things anyhow.

By the way, I agree with the 4 knot rule. Maybe 3.5

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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arlingva
Navigator

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USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 21:07:06

Think this is one of the most interesting threads I have ever read on this site. I have two children 3 and 6. They don't particularlly (sp) enjoy or object to sailing. I sometimes see them as being unappreciative (sp again) of the opportunities they are presented with, but think back to my own childhood and realize the timespent together is what conveys love/interest and in the end its the time that matters.

See you and your kids on the water.

Bill

Bill Swanson
C250WK #614

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