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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Standing Rigging

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cch
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202 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/15/2003 : 08:26:57

I was reading a recent topic which started me thinking. My boat is out getting ready for a swing to wing conversion, and I am trying to catch up on everything while on land with mast down.

I have inspected my standing rigging, but I'm not sure exactly what all to look for. I have heard of dyes to test the integrity of stainless steel.

I would appreciate any suggestions on how to inspect or test my rigging now while the mast is down. The boat is 23 years old. 17 years in fresh water and now 6 in salt.

Thanks

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade
80 C25 #2126 sr/sk
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d636b3127cce8c9d4c83e7890000002010" border=0>

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 10:20:19

I dont think there's any good way to see what's going on inside those rolled swages.

With that many years on the rig, I'd be inclined to replace at least the forestay, backstay and top stays just on 'general principles'.
Be sure to 'comparison shop' some rigging shops for pricing.

You can also get stal-lok terminals, some wire and do your own.
(see their web site for info).

Have you already upgraded your cast aluminum spreader sockets with the new fittings?

Oh, inspect the masthead fitting for cracks and corrosion.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 10:44:16

Hi Chris,

Your question regarding inspecting the rig that is twenty three years old is an excellent one. And, one that many skippers should ask even if their boat is substantially younger.

First, get a copy of "the Complete Rigger's Apprentice" by Brion Toss. This is a great book that I've gone back to time after time for information and insight.

In the book, you will find a ~ten page section regarding surveying and maintenance of your rigging. There are many good tips in this section as to what to look for when inspecting your rigging. Of particular interest for owners of older boats is the following:

"Fatigue To Holman's four surveying rules I would add a fifth: stainless steel fatigues........It refers to the characteristic of alloyed steels of hardening and becoming brittle with age. The more heavily a piece of alloy is stressed relative to its ultimate strength, the faster it will fatigue.....Also, the warmer the climate, the faster stainless will fatigue, as the contribution of salt is enlarged."

So, the older the standing rigging, the more suspect it becomes.

Interestingly, bronze and galvanized steel are nearly impervious to fatigue. Galvanized wire rope also is stronger than stainless steel wire rope of the same diameter and stretches less. Hmmmmm?????

Anyway Chris, try to get your hands on a copy of the book and read up. You will be glad you did.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 12:04:08

Chris,

Hey Jude is a '82 and I replaced all my standing rig from Catalina Direct last year. Good products, everything fit and I got the open turnbuckles I wanted.

I saw no cracking or imminent breaks once I had everything down. But I do have more confidence when the SF Bay is kicking my a____.

Three weeks ago on a Columbia 26 a few slips down, '78, the forestay pulled out of the fitting at the masthead. Only his roller furler jib halyard prevented the mast coming down. Columbias lack the fore and aft shrouds like Catalinas have, as theirs are straight up, upper over lower.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

Edited by - on

drttu
1st Mate

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USA
41 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 14:32:35

My masthead broke during a Kansas storm so I can say that inspection of the masthead and rigging is extremely important. My mast came falling down and was not a pretty sight.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 14:43:32

Chris,

If you're saying that you think your standing rigging is 23 years old, I wouldn't take a chance on inspecting it and maybe not spotting a good reason to replace it. If you check with professional riggers, I think they'll tell you that 5 to 10 years is about the standard safe life expectancy for stainless steel standing rigging. A lot depends on climate, salt, type of use, etc. I think that 316 alloy will last a lot longer in the tropics than the less expensive 302/304 alloy that comes stock on so many boats.

At about that age (23 years), my probably original rigging was shot! It had meathooks from broken strands, cracked swedges, broken turnbuckle studs, stripped or jammed turnbuckle barrels, a banana swedge on the one newer stay, just all around scary. (My C-25 has probably been in tropical salt water all its life.)

I made up my own replacement rigging using 316 alloy wire, Sta-Lock terminals, and open-body bronze turnbucles with toggles. It was quick, easy, and not all that expensive.

As Bill Holcomb mentioned, Brion Toss wrote a great beginners' text on sailboat rigging. Brion also sells videos on surveying rigging, and one on installing Sta-Lock terminals. All well worth the investment.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 20:40:46

"I made up my own replacement rigging using 316 alloy wire, Sta-Lock terminals, and open-body bronze turnbucles with toggles"

That's "The Right Stuff"

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2003 : 22:25:53

I just spent a couple hours with water coming all the way over the cabin top into the cockpit. I love Kansas wind. I was single handing and my focus was split between playing the gusts and rollers (These boats have some freeboard!) and staring at my 22 year old rigging. So I just went to the Sta Lok site and realize I am way over my head. I want the bullet proof rigging that you guys made up but lack the information needed to order the parts. Do any of you have a parts list and a source so I can make my own rigging?
Specifics guys, lets have some specifics.

Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 09/15/2003 22:26:37

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 01:41:16

Thanks for the input, I'll get started on my homework.

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade
80 C25 #2126 sr/sk
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d636b3127cce8c9d4c83e7890000002010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 02:09:41

Frank and Martha,

Re: "... realize I am way over my head ... lets have some specifics." A lot depends on how far in over your head, it's hard to know what level of expertise to write to on the 'Net.

Re: "I want the bullet proof rigging that you guys made up.." "You guys" being who? I doubt that any two of us have the same "bullet proof rigging".

Re: "... a parts list and a source so I can make my own rigging?"

I'll try. First, sources:
[url="http://www.briontoss.com/"]Brion Toss Yacht Riggers[/url] had the best wire and price on Sta-Locks. [url="http://www.westmarine.com/"]West Marine[/url] and [url="http://www.defender.com/welcome2.html"]Defender[/url] turned out to have the best price on the Hayn turnbuckles. I forget who I ordered the upper forestay toggle from. I probably also got some of the stuff from [url="http://www.bananarivermarine.com/"]Banana River Marine[/url].

Parts & Materials:<ul>
<li>(1 copy) "Rigger's Apprentice", book by Brion Toss.</li>
<li>(1 copy) "Surveying Rigging", video by Brion Toss.</li>
<li>(1 copy) "Sta-Lock Terminations", video by Brion Toss.</li>
<li>3/16" 1x19 316 alloy stainless steel rigging wire - just add up the lengths of the masthead rigging in the owner's manual.</li>
<li>5/32" 1x19 316 alloy stainless steel rigging wire - just add up the lengths of the lower shrouds in the owner's manual.</li>
<li>(4) 5/16" bronze open body toggle-jaw/toggle-jaw turnbuckles.</li>
<li>(4) 3/8" bronze open body toggle-jaw/toggle-jaw turnbuckles.</li>
<li>(1) 3/8" stainless steel eye/jaw toggle (headstay).</li>
<li>(8) Sta-Lock 5/32"x5/16" eye terminals.</li>
<li>(8) Sta-Lock 3/16"x3/8" eye terminals.</li>
<li>(2doz) stainless steel split rings.</li>
<li>(3doz) stainless steel cotter pins.</li>
<li>(1 small) blue Lock-Tite.</li>
<li>(1 tube) polysulfide sealant.</li>
</ul>

Tools:<ul>
<li>pencils.</li>
<li>paper.</li>
<li>masking tape.</li>
<li>fine point felt tip pen.</li>
<li>(50') steel measuring tape.</li>
<li>hacksaw w/sharp fine blade.</li>
<li>(1') 2x4 scrap.</li>
<li>(2) adjustable wrenches.</li>
<li>needle nosed pliers.</li>
</ul>

Proceedures:<ul>
<li>Study the book.</li>
<li>Study the tapes.</li>
<li>Measure the old rigging very carefully.</li>
<li>Cut the new rigging very carefully.</li>
<li>Assemble the new rigging.</li>
<li>Install the new rigging.</li>
</ul>

I think it took me two or three evenings after work to make up the new rigging, not counting reading the book and watching videos.

A brief note on measuring: Keep in mind that you want to end up with the correct over all lengths eye to eye with each turnbuckle about 2/3 extended. You'll need to do some basic arithmetic to determine what length to cut the new wire so everything comes out right. My boat matched the factory spec's exactly. Yours may not.

I also switched from single offset backstay to adjustable split backstay. Upgraded the bow fitting, lower chainplates, and spreader bases. Added heady wall alluminum compression sleeves at all spreader thru-bolts. Removed, inspected, and rebedded the upper chainplates, with full diameter hex bolts, large fender washers, and locknuts in place of the original machine screws through the main bulkhead. Switched from external halyards to internal lead aft. Rewired the mast, including new lights, while I had it down on sawhorses. Replaced VHF antenna, added windvane. Installed stainless steel safety wire bird deflectors on all potential perches. Added stainless steel masthead topping lift wire parallel to backstay.

I'm not trying to make work for you here. I'm just mentioning some additional things you might want to look into while the mast is down. A lot depends on your definition of "bullet-proof rigging".

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 08:48:08

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Frank and Martha,
I'm not trying to make work for you here. I'm just mentioning some additional things you might want to look into while the mast is down. A lot depends on your definition of "bullet-proof rigging".

-- Leon Sisson
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think I love you.

Has anyone looked into buying a custom spar? The amount of effort required to corrctly transition to internal halyards seems rather high considering you end up with only two halyards. Has anyone formed an opinion relative to the advantages of halyards exiting at the base of the mast through an internal turning block vs exiting head high through a slot and running external to a turning block attached to a mast base candy dish?

Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 10:23:10

IMHO stuff follows...

Internal halyards vs external... in many ways encapsulates the debate between the 'crusier' and the 'racer' camps.

Internal halyards are 'sexy', but if something goes wrong (losing one, troubles from fraying or chafing, getting tangled up with wiring etc) you're in for a more difficult time getting things "sorted out" again.

Externals are easier to fix, it's easier to spot problems... but like to clang against the mast in the wind and are not considered 'sexy'.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 11:13:36

As I see it, when the sails are down, "internal" halyards are half external anyway, and need prevention from slapping (which is not sexy). I've looked at new C-25s with internals, and I suspect my big swivel block at the mast base makes a smoother turn than the little roller in the mast opening, for slightly easier hoisting and tensioning from the cockpit. But that's a guess...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 11:24:29

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
IMHO stuff follows...

Internal halyards vs external... in many ways encapsulates the debate between the 'crusier' and the 'racer' camps.

Externals are easier to fix, it's easier to spot problems... but like to clang against the mast in the wind and are not considered 'sexy'.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yestrerday I was singlehanding in 20-25 mph with 35 gusts. when I put the bow into the wind to let the 80% jib down it came down about 10 ft and stopped. The rope knot to wire eye union had blown around the back of the mast and wedged in the lower shroud tang area. I was dissapointed. I had to pull down my main into my open companionway, throw a wrap around it with the boomvang tail and go below to get the boat hook. All of this with periodic leaps to the rear to get the boat back into the wind. The boat hook barely reached the problem and I was able to get the sail down and drop the forward hatch on some of the sheets and the clew to keep the sail down. I do not think any of this would have been a problem if I did not have those stupid rope to wire knots. So external rope halyards would fix this issue. But also, the headsail halyard exits the port aft sheave of the masthead. The deck turning block is starboard of the mast. This does not lend itself to a fair lead. I am running the halyard through the whisker pole eye just to move it away from the mainsail. Currently I need to partially raise the headsail to get the knot out of the way of the rising mainheadboard or the main will get fouled. It seems these issues beg for internal halyards. Assuming that the internals have a larger single sheeve forward for the headsail halyard and a larger single sheeve aft for the mainsail halyard. I think the first thing I am going to try is external line halyards with the headsail halyard led to port through new deck hardware. I will miss the cabintop deck space next to the poptop. These boats have really narrow decks!

Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 09/16/2003 11:28:35

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 12:19:47

Frank,

I concur that the bowline knot to wire eye is a real problem when raising and lowering the sails, especially in a blow. Therefore, I will be replacing with all line halyards. Unfortunately, this problem was discovered after replacing all my running rigging a little over a year ago. Oh well, I'll have plenty of high-quality dock and heaving lines next summer. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

I accidently eliminated part of the problem, however, by installation of mainsail and headsail dousing lines, which are lead back to the cockpit. The dousing lines allow me to keep the halyards tensioned at all times, thus eliminating the wrapping and jamming problems most of the time; as well as facilitating sail dousing.

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 12:41:09

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The dousing lines allow me to keep the halyards tensioned at all times, thus eliminating the wrapping and jamming problems most of the time; as well as facilitating sail dousing.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I have a small downhaul block at my bow. I think I will rig it, thanks.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 09/16/2003 15:48:52

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 09/16/2003 15:53:08

Edited by - on

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