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Need Advice on Catalina 25 Swing Keel

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MWitte02
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/17/2003 : 23:42:42

Hello - writing for your collective insight and expertise. We have the opportunity to purchase a Catalina 25 with Swing Keel at a very reasonalbe price and would like your help. We are new to sailing and are wondering is the Swing Keel a help or hindrance when sailing, we will be sailing the Long Island Sound. We plan to purchase mooring for the season and dry dock for winter storage - is it okay to moor a swing keel? So, in general looking for your expertise on the Catalina 25 with Swing Keel and how friendly it may be to new sailers. Thanks for any help...

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cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 02:08:36

The Catalina 25 is a great boat. We have had our 1980 swing keel standard rig for 8 years. When we bought our boat we were not very experienced. Although there is a bit of required maintenance with the swing keel, the Catalina 25 is good first boat. We found it to be stable and forgiving. The swing keel enabled us to get into areas not accessable to other boats.

There is fantastic support for Catalina owners. This forum is great, Catalina Yachts still sells parts for our old 1980 model and Catalina Direct is a parts and information supplier where you can get nearly anything you could want.

After 8 years we are still very pleased with our decision to buy this boat. We are in the process of converting from swing to wing keel for several reasons, but would not hesitate to buy another swing keel.

If there are any shallow areas in your waters a swing keel is a great help. We also found the swing really easy to load on and off a trailer. I have always felt the nice large keel riding low in the water when lowered made for a much more stable boat than others of its size. This was very important to us when we were learning.

You should be fine moored. I believe I would moor it with the keel down if possible. I don't believe the keel was really designed to be retracted all the time with no support other than the cable. (one of our reasons for converting, the water at our dock is shallow so the keel has had to be kept up)

Good luck with your decision and enjoy your new sailing adventures.

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade
80 C25 #2126 sr/sk
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d636b3127cce8c9d4c83e7890000002010" border=0>

Edited by - cch on 09/18/2003 02:10:21

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 06:23:55

The swing keel was not designed to be moored in salt water... thats not saying it hasn't been done or couldn't be done. However, you will have greater piece of mind, less maintenance and likely save yourself a real pain by going with a fin or wing model.

This is not to say the boat may not be a good choice if it's clean and available at a good enough price to have the wing keel conversion performed (3-4 thousand).

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 08:03:25

Welcome to the Catalina family and the forum were you will find the the most helpful sailors anywhere.

You did not mention what model year the SK is that you will be purchasing, but here is my experence with the swing model.

I have a 1979 C25 orginially a SK, but has been converted to a wing. The reason for the wing change was that the swing cable broke and the keel dropped cracking the hull. The boat almost sunk in 7 feet of water. The reason was improper maintenance by the PO. The boat was 9 years old and moored in brackish water with the keel up all the time when moored. I would have no qualms about a swing boat in salt water provided the keel was kept down and the cable maintenance was done IAW the Catalina manual. If the price is right you will find no better boat to begin your sailing career than the C25 or its newer sister the C250. I presently have a new C250 on order, expected deliver in middle October. Admittedly it is a wing, but only because the General was adamant about the extra headroom in the wing vs the swing.

Again welcome and God speed in your sailing adventures.

Frog and The General
<img src="http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/3f514bcf_339f/bc/boats/__tn_Pretty+Penny.jpg?bc2LWU_AhL8DufLw" border=0>
79 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny

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MWitte02
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 11:04:51

Thanks for the info everyone. We really like the Catalina compared to other cruisers we've seen, mainly because of the spacious interior. Our biggest concern was the swing keel in salt water (the boat we are looking at has some minor rust on the keel). We haven't heard any adomant no's to mooring in salt water, so perhaps we will go for it.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 12:11:28

I'd check with the seller on when the cable was last inspected and last replaced. If the replacement was not within the past uhhhhh... let's say ten years, do yourselves a favor and do it before next season.

The mooring up versus down issue has been debated here--I also recall somebody saying that Catalina had changed its mind about that, but I'm not sure. If you do a search on "swing" and "moor", you'll find some discussions, including http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3267 .

Now, I'd like to repeat a suggestion to most prospective owners: Get a professional marine survey--not just to assure you that you want to spend the bucks for the boat, but to give you a priority list for the things you should attend to. It should run you $2-300 or so. Many purchase agreements are subject to a "satisfactory survey". Be there for the survey with a clipboard and ask questions. If you're getting a "really good deal," that may seem like a lot, but since you're new to sailing, it's a few "boat units" very well spent.

Then, go to catalinadirect.com and order their $10 C-25 Owner's Handbook--it's mostly a catalog of parts and upgrades for our boats, but it also has lots of good information. You'll come to appreciate Catalina Direct (not affiliated with Catalina Yachts).

Lastly, keep in touch with this forum and join the association that provides it--I found that it's one of the best features of the C-25.

Good luck with your new adventure!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 09/18/2003 12:12:38

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 18:15:18

I provided a warning above... and see that in light of other answers that I couched that warning a bit too much. In fact, I feel responsible to the author of the thread to provide a little more depth.

There have been numerous failures of the swing keel design reported to this forum over the seven years I've monitored it, perhaps in the scores. These failures most often result in significant damage requiring rebuilding of the trunk. They sometimes lead to the boat sinking, often at its mooring while unattended. There have even been reports of lost keels.

The design was terminated by Catalina because of the propensity for problems.

There is no data on just how many or what percentage fail...perhaps Catalina would devulge how many wing conversions they have shipped, but many repair the damaged trunks and continue. The numbers are enough that those who own them are quite cautious about maintenance as has been related here in the thread.

Owners of swings have converted to wing keels following a dropped keel with damage or to gain peace of mind. They didn't do that because they wanted to throw their money away. That there are many swing owners not having problems is true. That they love their boats and feel defensive about them is understandable... and we should hear about the successes just as much as the failures.

I've watched this issue from the sidelines the last seven years and my only reason to join this fray is fairness. I don't believe the other side of the issue was adequately brought out. In some ways, I think a comfortable position has evolved... that if inspections and maintenance are done... all will be ok. Basically, I think that's a reasonable conclusion with a couple of caveats. There have been failures within short periods after reworking and those on this forum after observing the number of reported failures are likley more aggressive with their maintenance both in frequency and attention to detail in the repairs. My point is simply... to buy a swinger is like taking a companion with a known character flaw... be prepared to endure.

For those swing owners that might be tempted to react to my cross indulgence, let me remind them that as a spectator to this issue... I've earned the right to weigh in by reading and following the hundreds of relative post over eight years. Last, I've also sensed the responsibility to be candid... and when the handling of my boats design was bad... I openly lamented it... believing discourse about it was both fair to those who might want to know as well serve as a help toward the solution.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 09/18/2003 19:31:13

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 07:13:14

Well said, Arlyn. As a recent owner of an 87 SR/SK (this is my first season on the water with her), my pre-purchase inspection indicated there might have been a swing keel failure by the previous owner, but that it was inconclusive. Low and behold, the first day I splashed the boat, we accumulated about 2 inches of lake water in the bilge in just a handful of minutes. Not good. We thought our worst fear about the boat may have been realized.

We hired a professional fiberglass person to look at the boat and make recommendations. He said he could repair the leak in the keel trunk by re-fiberglassing the aft section of the part of the trunk that comes up into the cabin, which is where the leak was coming from. He said he could repair it for $250.00, we said go for it, and he ended up charging us $120.00. Since then it's been bone dry.

I would not discourage anyone from purchasing a swing keel C25 as long as they understand the maintenance issues that go along with the boat. With that said, my wing keel conversion kit is on the road shipping from the factory to my boat yard to be installed on my boat. I'm doing it because I want the peace of mind. I hope to have the boat back with the new wing keel installed within the next couple months.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 08:42:25

I wish there were an accepted MTF (Mean Time to Failure). I guess there are just so many variables that there is no way to get a meaningful data set. I know that in the few weeks that I have owned my boat #2790 I have only had the amount of lateral movement of the keel head on the trrailer to make me feel concerned. In a pretty good blow the other day there were no noises at all. Still this forum has caused me to put a wing conversion as the number two priority, right after new standing rigging. I thought $7k on a boat with a trailer and with a motor was a good deal, now I wonder.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

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Ben
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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 09:59:32

Frank, I don't want you to think that the amount you paid for your boat and trailer was anything less than fair. Someone on this board said once that a boat is worth exactly what you are willing to pay for it. To me, $7k sounds like a good deal to me. I paid $9.7k for mine and I have no regrets, even with spending another 3 or 4k on the wing conversion. To me it is worth it. Your swing keel (and mine for that matter) may very well last years and years with the proper maintenance, which I view as minor and inexpensive. I personally like the idea of no longer having to crank the keel up and down, so I'm getting the wing conversion. Starting next year I'm going to have a slip in a reservoir with fluxuating water levels that may affect my boat if it were to have the extra draft that comes with the swing keel. That's another reason I'm getting the wing.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 11:40:28

Frank and Martha... You did fine! There are at least a couple of thousand swingers out there, many with probably almost no maintenance. The biggest variable is salt versus fresh water--you have a substantial advantage there. If you convert, you probably couldn't get all of your money back when you sell, but you'll get more than that in peace of mind, and you'll feel much better about selling it when you do.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 12:01:55

Fluctuating reservoir levels is also a concern of mine. Wichita's water department has pulled our lake down by 4 or 5 ft and I only have 6' at the slip 5' at the end of the pier and 6.5' at the hoist. That means working the winch a lot as I sail in and out of the club. Yes convenience is an issue but the long term joy and peace of mind of ownership seems to beg for the conversion. If there were a slam-bang method for dropping the keel while on the trailer the maintenance would not seem so unreasonable but unless I have jack-screws installed where my box tube is under the roller units then I cannot get the boat high enough on the trailer to get to the parts of the keel that need maintaining. Hmmm jack-screws, that would be cheaper than a keel huh?

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 14:09:24

If its just to replace the cable you only need a few inches to attach the new cable and snake it through into the boat. Is there a marina that can pull your boat for a week and put you on Jack stands. you could replace the cable, get the bottom painted and inspect any other hull projects (through v to-hull?). Most places have fairly reasonable rates for things like that.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/images/layout/category_images/t_3964.jpg" border=0>

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 14:11:01

Hmmm...I feel compelled to point out that in my decision making process, the discovery of the 25 swing controversy pushed me away from the boat. I sail in salt water, and the fact that extra maintenance is required, and that then safety (lets call a spade a spade) is still not guaranteed, was enough to say no. Since the other models do not trailer well, I ended up shelling out extra $$ for a 250. I don't regret doing so.

If you still have a choice, why take on the headache?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 09/19/2003 14:12:03

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 14:28:18

But Oscar, now you have to worry about your ballast tank filling up with zebra mussels! (Or didn't you know...) <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Oscar
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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 14:55:59

Nope, did not know, and suspect you're pulling my leg.......Not too worried anyway. Don't think they'll do well without water in the tank in the back yard in the 90 degree sun. Noticed you don't "swing" either......<img src=icon_smile_kisses.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 15:28:22

Oscar/Dave,

Not to worry I have a great recipe for mussels ( I suppose Zebra mussels succumb to the same "BOIL" as do other mussels). Problem might involve getting them out of the tank. But that's only a problem looking for a solution. EASY.

VAL ON cALISTA # 3936

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 15:40:18

We all make compromises. Lets face it unless we are trailering regularly we would all be better off with a 28' wing keel. Instead we are in old narrow cruisers or in new compromises to the high costs of production. Me, I bought the boat that was available in my town at a price I was comfortable with, that is probably the bottom line for most of us. Fortunately what ever we are in... THEY SAIL!

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 16:41:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Fortunately what ever we are in... THEY SAIL! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'll second that.....

250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 22:06:23

Another voice heard from: I bought my '78 swinger back in '83. She lives in fresh water in the Columbia River, but sees salt for 2-3 weeks per year. A new cable now and then.......big deal! I am happy with this boat. I can trailer easily, and raise the board when sand bottoms come up to greet me on occasion. Different strokes.........But, if I was in salt all the time, I would be doing a cable replacement at least every two years or so, I think......So far, no catastrophes.......reminder: even fins fall off boats every so often. Keel bolts are NOT forever.....

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 22:58:22

It isn't only a cable replacement. There is a new style lifting bracket that replaces the simple eyebolt that the cable attaches to. This is an important modification available at a very reasonable price. The threads in the keel bore (for the eyebolt or bracket) need to be in good condition. Also the forward part of the keel should be inspected for conformity to design, proper assembly and torque.

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2003 : 12:56:56

I bought my '83 swinger last summer for sailing on the Potomac River. The swinger is ideal for the shallow and muddy bottom I face. However, the safety issues do give me pause. When the time comes to move to salt water, I'll probably buy a different and larger boat. If I were you, I might see if I can find a fin keel boat (or a wing keel, if you can afford it). The C-25 is a great boat otherwise, and I've had a lot of fun with it.

Bruce Baker
Falls Church, VA
"Yee Ha" 3573
'83SR/SK

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SeabirdSkipper
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 17:41:20

This is news to me -- why keel down?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
 Welcome to the Catalina family and the forum were you will find the the most helpful sailors anywhere.

You did not mention what model year the SK is that you will be purchasing, but here is my experence with the swing model.

I have a 1979 C25 orginially a SK, but has been converted to a wing. The reason for the wing change was that the swing cable broke and the keel dropped cracking the hull. The boat almost sunk in 7 feet of water. The reason was improper maintenance by the PO. The boat was 9 years old and moored in brackish water with the keel up all the time when moored. I would have no qualms about a swing boat in salt water provided the keel was kept down and the cable maintenance was done IAW the Catalina manual. If the price is right you will find no better boat to begin your sailing career than the C25 or its newer sister the C250. I presently have a new C250 on order, expected deliver in middle October. Admittedly it is a wing, but only because the General was adamant about the extra headroom in the wing vs the swing.

Again welcome and God speed in your sailing adventures.

Frog and The General

79 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2004 : 19:23:53

Because with the keel up all the time, if the pennant breaks, which they have and more will, the keel comes down in a hurry. When it reaches the stop the momentum is such that there almost always is serious damage, resulting in water infiltration. (Cracked keel box etc.) If you're not on board, you can't pump, or run up on a beach, and then the next time you see it, only the part of the mast sticking out of the water will be there to greet you....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2004 : 00:27:32

I want to point out another issue with swing keels in salt water that no one else mentioned in the other posts - The Pivot Bracket Pin hole through the keel itself is subject to even more corrosion than is the cable, which at least is stainless steel. Lowell at CD told me that he has heard of at least one case of total keel separation where it wasn't the cable (pennant) that broke, it was the pivot hole that rusted and wore through, until the pivot pin broke right through the remaining sliver of metal at the TOP of the keel. Catalina 22 Mk. I swingers (cast iron keel) are of course subject to the same problem. When you hear a swing keel that is "thunking" a lot in rolly conditions, it can mean that the pivot pin hole has become dangerously enlarged due to rusting. I don't know how you would fix this - can cast iron be welded, then a new hole drilled through the weld? Anyway, it seems to me that there have been enough keel failures reported that I would not keep a swing keel Catalina in salt water full-time unless I was ready to commit to bi-annual cable replacement, and at least bi-annual inspection of that pivot pin hole to make sure it hasn't enlarged past safe limits, whatever they are. Also, I am firmly in the "not-raised" camp on the issue of whether or not a swing keel C-25 should be moored and left unattended with the keel up. The consequences of a cable failure are at least severe damage to the keel trunk, if not immediate sinking of the boat, if the cable lets go with the keel all the way up. Someone said that the cable is less subject to corrosion with the keel raised - I don't believe it. The normal waterline on a C-25 swinger is at least a couple of inches up the thru-hull hose, meaning that the keel and cable end fittings are fully submerged whether the keel is raised or lowered, so the cable end swage is getting soaked in salt water regardless.

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Leon Sisson
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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2004 : 01:47:35

Larry Charlot,

Re: "Lowell at CD told me that he has heard of at least one case of total keel separation where it wasn't the cable (pennant) that broke, it was the pivot hole that rusted and wore through, until the pivot pin broke right through the remaining sliver of metal at the TOP of the keel. ... When you hear a swing keel that is "thunking" a lot in rolly conditions, it can mean that the pivot pin hole has become dangerously enlarged due to rusting."

I agree that the potential for a problem exists. However, I'm all but certain that my 1979 C-25 swing keel has spent its entire life in tropical seawater (Florida Keys, Miami, and Banana River which is a saltwater lagoon). When I got it in 1996, the 1" pivot hole in the keel was wallowed out to between 1-1/2" to 2" in a rough hourglass shape. Yes, it clunked. But that was after 17 years in warm saltwater and there was still a lot of iron left above the pin.

Re: "I don't know how you would fix this - can cast iron be welded, then a new hole drilled through the weld?"

Yes. Not every shade tree welder has the equipment, training, and skills to do it, but it can be done.

There's an easier way to permanently repair a worn swing keel pivot hole. I had mine drilled out to 1-1/2" ID (which didn't remove much remaining metal!) After drilling, the hole was sandblasted, acid etched, and die-ground to shiny iron. I then installed a 1"IDx1-12"OD bronze bushing bedded in WEST epoxy strengthened with powdered metal. I built an alignment jig to position the bushing during curing. I installed four small sacrificial zinc anodes at the pivot bearings, and two more on the keel near the cable attachment.

Also, I removed absolutely all rust from my entire iron keel, and totally encapsulated it in fiberglass and epoxy, right up to the pivot bushing and lifting eye. There's a thick bronze shoe to prevent wearing through the fiberglass where the keel would touch bottom.

Every year or two, I replace the keel cable, zincs, and inspect the winch, turning ball, pivot bearing parts, replacing any that seem suspect, and repair any damage to the fiberglass encapsulation.

This is the second iron swing keel boat I've done this work on for continuous immersion in tropical saltwater. I've seen both boats out of the water years after the keel encapsulation, etc., and they are both holding up beautifully. The first keel job has been in service for over 10 years now, and I hope to see it while hauled out again this year.

Re: "Also, I am firmly in the "not-raised" camp on the issue of whether or not a swing keel C-25 should be moored and left unattended with the keel up."

I agree with your reasoning. Although I don't have enough depth where I tie up to leave my cable slack, I lower the keel until it touches bottom, and then raise it 5 or 6 crank turns. If the lift system ever did fail, I think the sandy bottom would slow the keel down enough to prevent the worst damage to the trunk. I also have a 3,700-GPH automatic damage control pump wired to a group-27 battery, with two more batteries on standby at the flip of a switch. There's also a permanently installed 3-bank, 20A, shore power charger which could keep up with the pump. One of these days, I'll add a loud alarm to that pump circuit.

Re: "The normal waterline on a C-25 swinger is at least a couple of inches up the thru-hull hose, meaning that the keel and cable end fittings are fully submerged whether the keel is raised or lowered, so the cable end swage is getting soaked in salt water regardless."

I agree. One suggestion is to have the terminal fitting preloaded with 3M-5200 before the wire is inserted and swaged.

I don't doubt that there are many swing keels surviving in saltwater with a lot less care than I give mine. But as we've said here before, swing keels do require a bit more preventative mantenance.

-- Leon Sisson

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