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Can I now mention the "F" word

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frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/18/2003 : 07:46:59

back in july I was planning my fall / winter projects. Well now reality is setting in an Irish Ayes comes out Oct 11.

This year I want to make the boat easier to manage when singlehanded. I plan on Lazy Jacks, and all halyards, sheets going to the cockpit. I appreciate insight into the following.

Is there a specific type of drill bit that ones uses to go through the decking for a clean cut?

What about the mast wires running within the deck, if I place organizers can I be assured of missing these when drilling

How do you place your organizers precisely, do you work from the cockpit foward placing the lines?

Do you advise the use of backing plates under cluthes & organizers? If so what type so that it somewhat hidden below.

What other types of improvements do you utilize to single hand more easily

Thanks to all

Frank R
84 C25 SK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 10:15:01

As for the chicken or egg question. You are right to seek a technique. I believe that I would place the rope clutches first. Space requirements between the hand rail and the pop-top will pretty much dictate that placement. I would also make sure to place a triple rope clutch whether you think you need all three now or not. The next issue is how are you going to turn your lines from vertical to horizontal. Deck mounted stand-up blocks are often used but I would prefer the "candy dish" under the mast step. It is a plate with an angled edge that protrudes around the mast step and provides holes to connect things to. If you want "stand up" turning blocks you can add springs to the bases of the blocks you use and they will stand fairly clear of the deck even when not under load. Once you have the two ends of the run determined by the clutches and the turning blocks the positioning of the deck organizer block will become self determining. You simply place the deck organizer to provide a fair lead between the turning blocks and the clutches. I would do this to both sides of the cabin. By the time you run 2 to 3 halyards, single line reef, Cunningham, outhaul, topping lift, Spinnaker pole lines you are already 3 lines short, and that is without what ever brilliant idea you will come up with for something led to the cockpit. (We all think of something.)

Do you have a cabin top wench? If not you need them. I have my two halyards led aft on my starboard side, I have a horn cleat between my wench and my clutches, If I am feeling insecure about the clutches I can belay the lines on the big cleat.

I am going to add lines to my port side, I will probably move one of my Lewmar 7s up from the coaming and replace the coaming winches with an upgrade.

And as always CatalinaDirect.com has what you need.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 10:29:51

Here's a few answers to you questions Frank.

"Is there a specific type of drill bit that ones uses to go through the decking for a clean cut?"

The best advice here is a sharp drill bit.....either new or newly sharpened. I've always used "regular" drill bits; not "speed" bits for drilling through fiberglass. After you have drilled the holes, take the drill bit out of the drill and replace it with a counter sink bit. Use the counter sink bit to slightly indent the hole and smooth the edges.

"What about the mast wires running within the deck, if I place organizers can I be assured of missing these when drilling"

The mast wires were generally run from the deck/hull joint to the mast step forward of the upper shroud chain plate. So lay out your organizers aft of the upper shroud chain plate and you should be OK.

"How do you place your organizers precisely, do you work from the cockpit foward placing the lines?"

I don't think that precisely is the operative word. What you want is for the lines to lead along the inboard side of the hand rails between the hand rail and the edge of the pop top. AND, you want the line to lead at an angle aft from the mast to the organizer. So, the organizer will end up fairly close to the hand rail near the forward edge of the pop top. "Eye-ball" the angles so that you have a fair lead for the line. Additionally, you want the organizer to lay on the cabin top and bisect the angle that the line forms when it make its "jog" through the organizer. If you angle the line aft from the mast slightly, you'll jog through less than 90 degrees and have less friction.

"Do you advise the use of backing plates under cluthes & organizers? If so what type so that it somewhat hidden below."

No need for backing plates as the load on your bolts will be a shearing load rather than a vertical load. Simply use some 1.5" fender washers, lock washers, nut, and then an acorn nut to finish the job.

"What other types of improvements do you utilize to single hand more easily"

Don't forget that you need to lead your reefing lines aft as well as the halyards. I use swivel blocks secured to the mast near the mast base for the reefing lines. This gives me more room for halyards, topping lift, etc at the aft end of the cabin top.
http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/snkvang.html

You may find that a small winch like a Lewmar 6 located on each side will be helpful. It will be helpful to tension the headsail luff for breezy days; and helpful for tightening the mainsail luff after you have tucked in a reef.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 11:09:07

Thanks Guys!!

Great insight, should make the job go smoother

Frank R
84 C25 SK

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 18:24:20

"Is there a specific type of drill bit that ones uses to go through the decking for a clean cut?"

I usually drill a small hole first and then use the full size bit drilling part way from both the top and bottom side. This avoids the most ragged hole where the drill breaks through on the backside of the material.

Also, I think it's worth the effort to drill oversize, fill the hole with epoxy, and redrill to the correct size. This seals the core with epoxy so that a leak around the bolt is less likey to result in core rot. I use rope caulk to seal the bottom side of the hole while the epoxy is setting. Its very tacky and has never leaked before the epoxy hardened.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2003 : 21:31:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Can I now mention the "F" word
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Hmmm...sweat on the brow driving to work this morning with the top down...20 degree drop in temperature during the day...cold driving home with the top up...North wind knockin' on my front door for the first time since April.

Okay, I suppose so. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 09:19:08

Frank:

I would highly recommend a video from Catalina Direct, #D1939, that covers in detail the steps necessary to run your lines aft. It covers techniques on how to lay it out, what hardware you need, how to install, etc... The video also covers a variety of other upgrade projects. It cost about $30, but that's peanuts compared to the cost of your deck hardware and time that you put in to the project. Good luck! http://www.catalinadirect.com/

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 11:00:14

I now have my main halyard, main douser, reefing line, and (soon) topping lift led back--a wonderful enhancement for comfortable sailing, especially when the boat is pitching and rolling.

I arranged the organizers and clutches by running lines through them and moving them around on the deck--making sure the lines cleared the pop-top and handrails. As Bill said, if you place the organizer aft of the mast, it makes a shallower angle for each line. Also, the organizer doesn't need to be at a 45-degree angle--it can be angled more fore-and-aft so that the lines run close together between the poptop and the handrail. Laying it out with the lines helps you determine that. I placed the clutches far enough forward that I could add wenches (more fun than winches) later--but I haven't added either accessory.

Like Eric, I drilled very small holes, and then drilled larger ones in from above and below. Smaller bits are easier to control to get the exact position. I used my largest bit, just turning it with my hand, to create a shallow bevel around the top of each hole, to hold more caulk around the bolt. Tighten nuts by hand, let the caulk set for a few days, and then tighten the nuts again (keeping the bolts from turning) to complete the seal. With the poptop up, you easily hold a screwdriver on the bolts while tightening the nuts.

I agree with Bill--washers are all you need for backing--there's a heavy plywood core in there. Don't forget some acorn nuts (to avoid blood running down faces).

The mast base plate is the biggest project--getting the tabernacle off, cleaning up the goop, drilling the base plate to match the tabernacle (CD's doesn't match most of them), and then bedding and bolting it back together... I had my rigger drill the plate--it's heavy enough that it would have wasted a number of my bits.

You'll love the end-result!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 09/19/2003 11:48:24

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2003 : 11:39:00

For drilling into fiberglas, I always use a Forstner bit. The lead cutting surface is flat, and has a small 'point' in the center of the bit, which makes precise drilling of a hole easy, and eliminates comletely "bit wander".

My mast base plate sits atop the tabernacle under the raised mast. The compression of the mast keeps it in place and I have never had any problems with it moving. It is flanged front and rear (around the tabernacle sides) to help keep it locked in place. My main halyard, on the other hand, and a main dousing halyard, are led through stand-up turning blocks mounted at an angle to the mast and then back to the roof-top rope clutches (Lewmar) through an organizer positioned just ahead of the grab handle at roughly a 45 degree angle to for and aft. Then through fairleads (two for each line) on the coach top.

I strongly urge the use of a dousing halyard or halyard downhaul for the main--it makes precise reefing quick and easy, and you never have a problem dropping the main even in less than optimum conditions. I attach mine very simply to a piece of heavy gauge electric wire (no rubbing against the mast) run around the second highest mainsail slug. It is red, whereas my main halyard is white--easy to describe to less-than-experienced crew members.

Dave on "Wood Duck" (#2616)

Edited by - on

Chip Hunt
Navigator

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120 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2003 : 12:33:33

i had my main halyard run aft into the cockpit a couple of seasons ago. it makes a world of difference in terms of making sail raising easier when single handing. i didnt run the jib halyard back because i use a furler, and thus had no need to. we did not raise the mast and put a plate under it for blocks to be connected to. what we did was drill a hole in the cabin top at the base of the mast (port side, maybe 3 inches from the base) for a standing block. the main halyard runs through this standing block, then thru another block (i dont know the name of it, but it is a simple block on a plate on its side, thru a clutch, and then around a deck winch and into the cockpit. the block and clutch and winch are all located inbetween the poptop and the deck rail. the system works flawlessly. as for backing, i was under the impression that the cabin top has a balsa core, not a plywood core (i could be mistaken). we chose to error on the side of caution, and backed everything with 1/4'' stainless steel plates. no warping at all on the cabin top as a result. washers will likely work for you, but i wanted the rig to be as sturdy as possible, and it was not much more work or money to use the stainless backing plates. good luck with your project.
'slowly but maybe' 84 fk/tr
charleston, sc

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