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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

3rd generation rudder experiment

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bill bosworth
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USA
172 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/23/2003 : 20:24:54

I've been experimenting with a modification to my 3rd generation rudder. I, like Arlyn, feel that the 3rd gen rudder offers less control than the 2nd gen. in stonger wind conditions.
What I decided to do was try to take advantage of the "end plate" effect, and effectively lengthen the 3rd gen rudder. My solution was to add a plate or "wing" to the base of the rudder. I made my wing out of a piece of 1/8" aluminum plate (6061T6) that measures 8"X14".
I cut off the leading corners at 45 degrees leaving a 1 1/2" flat on the leading edge. I attached the plate to the rudder by first cleaning off the antifouling paint and gluing the plate on with 3M 5200. I was careful to make the plate perpendicular to the faces of the rudder and perpendicular to the axis of the pintails. I have sailed with this plate in place for about the past month or so (with a couple of weeks off for vacation). I haven't sailed the boat in conditions that I would call severe, but have had the boat at hull speed on several occasion, with at least 20 deegres of heal with no tendency for the boat to round out. I find that I can lower the board down much more with the 3rd gen rudder than with the 2nd, possibly alowing for better windward performance. I was concerned that the modification might make the rudder a little squirrly, but that has not been the case. I have been reluctant to bring this modification to the forum until adequately tested, but thaught that someone else might like to try it before the season ends and see if it works for them. The cost of the modification was about $5.00 for the aluminum plate and a couple of bucks for the 5200. The modification shouldn't cause any perminent damage to the rudder if it doesn't work out.
Bill C250wb #134 Serendipity

Edited by - bill bosworth on 09/23/2003 20:28:38
Edited by - bill bosworth on 09/25/2003 20:53:34

Edited by - bill bosworth on 09/25/2003 20:59:15<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d704b3127cce8f59b414730e0000001610" border=0>

Edited by - bill bosworth on 09/25/2003 21:00:47<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d704b3127cce8f59b73ab2890000001610" border=0>

Edited by - bill bosworth on 09/25/2003 21:05:09

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 20:42:38

Have any visuals?

250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

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bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 20:46:56

I should be able to take a couple of pix tommorow morning.
Then I just have to remember how to post them on this forum.
Bill

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 21:38:37

Bill related his mod to me a few weeks ago and it sounded like a very reasonable way to increase the control of the 3rd. Along with his mention of laminar flow benefits, I think the wing would lessen the loss of rudder depth while heeling. Combined, their benefits might be significant.

It's likely that the slight increased drag from the plate will be more than offset by the control advantages. Actually, the drag induced by the turbulence off the bottom of the 3rd rudder might be more than that of the plate.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 21:07:56

For some pix of the rudder "wing" check my original post.
Notice that the wing makes for a handy stand<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Bill
c250wb #134 Serendipity

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arlingva
Navigator

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USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2003 : 22:10:36

FYI. My third generation (I think) rudder does not look like yours before the modification. Mine only has one notch on the leading edge above the waterline. Yours appears to have two. I didn't know a version like the one in your picture existed. Learn something new everyday.

Bill

Bill Swanson
C250WK #614

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 07:22:11

Thats interesting... wonder if there are others with only one offset?

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 09:42:25

My rudder looks like Bill B's with two notches. I find that interesting B/C Bill S's hull # is very close to mine. Could there be differing 3rd generation rudders for the WK vs WB?

I don't really feel that there is any lack of control till I get to ~30 degrees of heel at which point if you don't spill some air from the main I round up. Bill I would like to know how it works with a little more wind seems like a good simple modification.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

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Arlyn Stewart
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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 17:29:39

Thinking about this one notch... it seems that someone posted about having problems mounting the rudder and solved it by cutting that 2nd notch away. I'm guessing however by your hull number that you bought it new... so in this case if that was done, it would likely have been the dealer when commissioning the boat.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 18:24:11

Ray... unfortunately the 3rd starts to stall well before 30 deg but because it is so well balanced weather helm is masked and can only be noted by visually or audible detecting the turbulence caused by the rudder.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 19:07:15

I have noticed the sound and have seen the turbulence. Never made the stall connection Duhh. I usually wait until the boat is launched to put the rudder on and always reflect how I should have launched with the rudder already on. It is a real pain to mount B/C of the notch. The rudder has a very close tolerance to the bottom of the boat and can only be mounted a certian way. However, the (IMHO) rudder needs no modification in this respect.

Could Bills rudder modification be made even more effective by adding an angle (say fore end 5-10 degrees lower than aft end) to the wings? Water ski's (professional series) have little tiny wings (similar to the wings that Bill added on his rudder) that attach to the skeg of the ski which can be angled from level to down to keep the ski digging in.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 09/29/2003 19:08:09

Edited by - on

azexploder
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2003 : 01:14:26

My hull #48 came with a gen #( I believe) without the second notch and (along with the orig gen 1).

Mike
C250 0048
Bluebyu2

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.