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Rudder Repair

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Jared
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/02/2003 : 10:30:59

I did forget to ask about another question I had regarding our new boat. The attachment of the lower pintle to the rudder is loose. It seems that the bolts were allowed to come loose and they bored out the bolt hole to make it elongated in an oval shape as the rudder worked back and forth. I had planned on just epoxying those elongated holes and then just redrilling new ones once it cured in the original bolt locations. Is this the best way of attacking this problem?

Jared Jamison
86 C25 #5354 FK/TR "Saba Rocks" Richmond, VA

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 11:02:45

Leon?... LEON? Break it and he will come.

I would be concerned about water in the core, you may have a bigger issue that just elongated holes. The epoxy path of filling and drilling seems to be the path of choice around here.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/02/2003 11:04:05

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/02/2003 11:04:38

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 12:20:27

Frank & Martha are right--water is a problem in those wood-cored rudders. I'd take the pintles off, use a bent piece of wire to srape around in the holes, feeling the condition of the core. If solid, I'd do what you described, except I'd drill a larger hole so you have a round area (not just elongated) to fill and drill through, adding strength and protecting the core.

If there's any sign of rot, I'd scrape out what I could reach with a bent wire, leave it in a warm, dry room for a few months, inject penetrating epoxy in all directions around the holes, let it set up, and then do the drill/fill/redrill routine with regular epoxy and microfibers.

But what I really did was buy a new balanced rudder. <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> (When we bought Passage, the rudder was split, possibly from freezing moisture, and the pintles had been pushed up, elongating the holes vertically. I didn't like any of that.

Leon??

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 10/02/2003 12:21:22

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 18:03:16

Jared,

My rudder on #4969 did not have a wood core, but rather one of high density foam. I know this because I was given an opportunity to examine a cross section of that rudder after it snapped in two on a line roughly parallel to the waterline and passing though the lower pintle region. This is where they break!

Having said that, I would say that a little drying is in order as Dave suggests, but it shouldn't take as long as it would if the core were wood. Given that the fiberglass may have some delamination in the area, I would suggest you consider some fiberglass reinforcement of the surrounding vicinity and some care to ensure that the fiberglass is fully bonded to the core.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 20:56:00

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
My rudder on #4969 did not have a wood core, but rather one of high density foam.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I've been worrying, after reading all the posts, about a vertical split I have running down the back "seam" on Antares' rudder. Since I'm hull #4849, Eric is #4969, and Dave is #5032, I wonder if I have the foam core like Eric's and if Jared has the wood core like Dave.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Also, Eric, I would appreciate your thoughts on what caused your rudder to break the way it did. Maybe I still have a problem.

Thanks,

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 22:14:51

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
My rudder on #4969 did not have a wood core, but rather one of high density foam.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I've been worrying, after reading all the posts, about a vertical split I have running down the back "seam" on Antares' rudder. Since I'm hull #4849, Eric is #4969, and Dave is #5032, I wonder if I have the foam core like Eric's and if Jared has the wood core like Dave.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Also, Eric, I would appreciate your thoughts on what caused your rudder to break the way it did. Maybe I still have a problem.

Thanks,

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

This rudder is off and 89-90 boat at our clob, it is split front and back.
<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/split%2089-90.JPG" border=0>

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 23:11:49

Interesting... The pic is of the newer, balanced rudder (as indicated by the step you can see on the leading edge) that came on the so-called "Mark IV" boats. I bought a balanced rudder three years ago--it has a foam core. I must admit I'm not certain about my original--it was awfully heavy compared to the new one, but maybe that was from water. I thought I detected wood when I took the pintles off.

I suspect the splitting is due to freezing of the moisture, and therefore I keep our rudder in the basement each winter. That could happen whether there's wood or foam in there. If it is foam, then drying it is not so important--as long as you don't let it freeze. The overdrilling/epoxy/redrilling routine is still appropriate.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/02/2003 23:12:38

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 23:12:24

Frank - Thanks, mate.

Mine's not nearly that bad, but probably headed that direction sometime in the future. Does anyone have ideas regarding the cause and, more importantly, the fix? I'm still interested in hearing about the cause of Eric's horizontal split, too. [Thanks, Dave. You answered while I was typing this.]

Thanks, as always, for your help!

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - Antares on 10/02/2003 23:13:12

Edited by - Antares on 10/02/2003 23:15:04

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 23:27:02

JB,

My rudder that failed had some delamination around the lower pintle. I made a repair attempt adding some fiberglass in the region. This was my first attemt to work with glass and I would say it was a pretty inept try. I used polyesther resin which is not as good as epoxy. I also may have sanded too much of the glass in order to fair it. I might well have severed many of the strands. It was also the old style blade rudder and my lack of skill in sail trimming probably resulted in fighting weather helm too much using the rudder. The resulting strain was too much.

The rudder had the vertical crack at the leading edge which probably contributed to the original delamination. In colder climes the intrusion of water through these cracks and subsquent freezing breaks the bond between the glass and the core. This bond provides the strength of the structure, so it becomes weak in that area. Eventually it breaks. A search of archived threads will turn up much on the topic. Many have opened up the cracks with a dremmel tool, injected epoxy, and even glassed over the edges to avoid new cracks. The posts indicate this works.

The new rudder replacements from Catalina Direct are, I believe, made with a new technique. This involves a single fiberglass shell with a long overlap region that fits into a form and is injected with expanding foam. The old method used two halves like clam shells. The seams between the halves were always the weak spot.

After my rudder broke, I made a new one based on the balanced rudder design. I made it from plywood and covered it with fiberglass. After 3+ years it's still going strong. Cost about $100 compared to $400+ for Catalina's.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 10:59:02

Thanks, Eric. Looks like I need to pull it next weekend, bring it home and do some work on it this winter.

Any guesstimates on the weight? It is an '85 unbalanced blade. And, any recommendations or cautions (besides don't drop it <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>) for pulling it singlehanded? I was thinking about wrapping one line around the rudder below the upper pintle and threading another around the tiller mount bolts, then using the mainsheet and boom vang attached to the boom end as two points of lift. I think that should allow me to avoid a single point of failure, control orientation and swing the rudder over to the finger dock. Then, if it's too heavy, I just have to figure out how to get it over to and into the car.

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 11:38:59

JB,

My unbalanced '81 rudder is about 30 lbs. I can lean over the stern rail and lift it off fairly easily. Once you get it out of the water though you gain the full weight and it is a handful although not unmanageable. Tie a safety line on it just in case you drop it and give it a try. I remove the tiller and just grab it and haul it straight up. Putting it back on is bit more difficult since you need to line everything up but it isn't too hard. When I brought mine home last (for this same repair) I pulled it to the dock first thing and by the time I was ready to laod it in the car it was pretty much dry. Hoist it up and carry it on your shoulder. It isn't any heavier than a cooler of beer.

Clif Thompson
Treasurer C-25/250 National Association.
svMoxie '81 25 sk

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 11:45:46

<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> Thanks, Clif.

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 16:19:24

Yup, my '85 rudder was a little hefty, but manageable. My new, balanced rudder is so light I have to use washers under the upper gudgeon to hold it in position--otherwise, it floats up to cotter pin at the tip of the pintle. Knowing the new one had a foam core, I had assumed (I guess in error) that the heavier old one was wood. I see no seams on the fore and aft edges of the new one that would appear to invite splitting.

If weather helm could break one of these rudders, it would break a balanced one as well as the unbalanced--the balanced rudder just hides the forces by playing the forward section against the aft section, but weather helm usually isn't the culprit. The worst force against a rudder comes from fore-aft pitching under heel, which can slam the blade into the water at an angle that snaps it at the lower pintle. Severe rolling can put forces on the blade, too, but not with as much shock. It helps (at least a little) if the helmsman doesn't fight those forces when the boat is pitching--let the rudder have its way momentarily, and it'll pivot to avoid some of the shock. That same shock can be rough on your gudgeon mountings as well. You inland lake sailers can ignore most of this... (Then again, ocean sailers can, too... <img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle>)

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 10/03/2003 16:31:41

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 17:58:32

Dave,

I think the old blade rudders were more susceptible to breaking under weatherhelm conditions than the balanced ones. Although the lift forces are similar or equal, the force delivered to the rudder by the tiller on a blade is much greater (that's why balanced rudders seem like power steering). The resulting twisting, I believe, accelerates the fatigue of the materials. I suppose since the twisting terminates at the lower pintle, there is a constant shearing in that region. Given that the hardware holes for the pintles create a weak spot, I guess that is the most likely break point.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 18:59:17

Eric, you may be right. If turning forces do the damage, I would expect a vertical break, perhaps through the rear bolts on both pintles. The pitching motion under heel impacts the rudder with forces that tend to create a horizontal break, and those forces can be sudden and enormous. It's a known cause of broken rudders on all kinds of sailboats.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/03/2003 19:00:24

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2004 : 17:23:40

Following the previous discussion, I removed the rudder at the end of October. My '85 rudder is a fiberglass encapsulated foam core, weighs maybe thirty pounds and floats enthusiastically. The fiberglass encapsulation was laid up in two halves by Catalina and then bonded to the foam core, somehow or another. The bond remains very good, however the seam had split all the way around creating a gap of between an 1/8" and a 1/4". (Unfortunately, I failed to take a "before" photo.) The following two photos were taken after the gap had been ground and cleaned out, slightly beveled and filled with epoxy.

A particularly nasty spot that was hidden beneath the lower pintle.

The through holes for the tiller and pintle hardware were also reamed out and filled with epoxy. After the fairing epoxy coats had dried, the hardware holes were redrilled and the entire rudder was sanded fair using an orbital hand sander with 60, 100, and then 220 grit wet sandpaper. Using sponge rollers, three coats of white epoxy topside paint were applied to the whole surface, and three coats of red anti-fouling paint were applied below the waterline.

Lessons learned (i.e., cautions):
1) Be very careful sanding, because the gel coat is extremely thin.
2) True drilling of the hardware through holes is crucial, especially for the pintles. Unfortunately, the pintles not necessarily being true themselves causes a problem for reinstallation.

I recommend that you dry fit the hardware before painting, and expect to do some touch up epoxy work. Or, expect to do some major wrestling, swearing and touch up painting.

3) When you think the anti-fouling paint is dry, it only looks dry. I stood my rudder on its head in a makeshift vise using my Workmate ShopBox for applying the anti-fouling paint. Worked great for three beautiful coats. Two days after the third coat, I laid the rudder down to install the hardware, and the weight of the rudder left "squish" indentations in the paint wherever the rudder was making contact with my work surface. So, I'd recommend reinstallation of the hardware prior to application of the anti-fouling paint...and wait, wait, wait for the paint to dry completely.

Edited by - Sea Trac on 03/12/2004 17:26:38

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