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I know what Santa's bringing

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/04/2003 : 09:21:51

Went to move the boat for winter haul out and the %*(**&& Honda 8 wouldn't start, not even a hint that it was going to start after 30-40 pulls of the starter cord.

Santa's bringing me a new o/b, a nissan 9.8 xls with elctric start. Merry Christmas, me! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 10/04/2003 09:22:32

Edited by - osmepneo on 10/04/2003 09:23:59

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 09:55:28

<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 11:02:45

Don,
If Santa is coming from the dealer on RT 30 outside of Mayfield would Santa have a better deal, say on Jan 30th when he isn't doing anything but paying bills and pushing snow? "Bear" on the hard in Schenectady. "Merry Xmas"

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 11:39:11

Bear,

Ya' its coming from the dealer on Rt 30, Mayfield, at least if I order from a dealer. Haven't checked web deals yet. Will before I order.

The dealer doesn't stock xls, and would have to order it from Nissan, but, ya' maybe.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 11:45:03

Hey Don,
What year Honda 8 do you have?

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 11:53:32

Frank,

I'm not really sure soewhere in the neigborhood of 95-96. It was a couple of years old when I bought my boat five years ago.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 12:02:35

Congrats, Don! I've had a Nissan 8 h.p. electric start w/remote for 11 years now - and not a hint of trouble!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 12:08:06

Congratulations Don! If you haven't already, check out Nissan discussions on [url="http://www.iboats.com/"]IBoats[/url]. Nothing but praise!

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 18:07:56

Sounds great, Don... Can you get a low-pitch, large diameter prop? If you can, do it--that's a big part of the "high thrust" motors many of us have come to love.

Merry Christmas and happy steaming to you!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 18:42:33

Don, before giving the old motor away too cheap, one thing to ensure when starting the Honda 8 from that vintage (now called the Honda 8 Classic), is the throttle setting. They have an idle lock when in neutral. A few times the idle lock fooled me in developing a mind set that it doesn't have any range to it. In fact, there is some and unless the throttle is rotated to the start position which is a very fast idle... I could pull the rope till it would wear out and it wouldn't start.

However, setting the throttle to the start position would see it start usually the first pull any time and almost every time.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 22:34:24

Let us know if the Nissan is the answer to all outboard problems in case I do not resolve the Mercury 9.9 hp 4-stroke problems.

John
C25 3973 FK/SR
"Texas Tango"

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 23:06:02

I am becoming an expert on this Honda motor. Pull a spark plug and lay it against the block. Pull the cord. You you have a spark? Yes - fuel system (most likely), no spark - electrical.

No Spark - disconnect the black wire with a red stripe coming from the kill switch. Motor starts? Kill switch bad (replaced mine 2 weeks ago). Doesn't start? Still no spark? Check all electrical connections. Replaced my connection to the pulsar coil (the one on the block) this summer. Still no luck - my guess replace the CDI.

Yes spark - remove both the main jet and the idle jet located on the right side of the motor (facing it). Clean with B-12 chem tool. Also spray inside the carb through the jet holes. Replace jets. Screw the idle jet in about 1/8 inch (make sure spring is intact - check both jets for any sign of damage). After it starts, put it in gear and adjust the idle mixture until it's running smooth.

Still won't run? Try starting fluid. Runs? Carb or fuel problem. No? Pull plugs. Are they wet? (yes fuel is arriving in the cylinder. No - fuel problem).

Still won't run ? Check pulsar wires, the pulsar coil supplies timing info to the CDI. Still won't run? Replace CDI. (since you are getting a spark the coil is good).

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 06:28:46

Reading the outboard horror stories on this site, I appreciate my 18 year old Mariner/Yamaha 2 stroke more and more every time I go to the boat and it fires up at a touch of the starter button. And when I have to lift it off the mount all by myself, I am even more thankful. Change the plug every winter, service the lower unit every couple of years, and hose it off after a sail. What could be simpler?

I wonder how many of the new 4 stroke wonders will be running smoothly with a minimum of maintenance 18 years from now? And please don't tell me about smoke and pollution: my little kicker running for ten minutes to get me in and out of the harbor is NOT the environmental problem!

Brooke

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 08:41:58

Don,

If you're willing to to go with the Tohatsu version of that OB you may want to check with these guys:

http://www.lebombomarine.com/outboards.htm

Although they don't show prices for the new light weight motors yet, they seem to discount about 20%.

I think they are bringing out a 25" shaft in Jan/Feb.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 10:57:17

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

I wonder how many of the new 4 stroke wonders will be running smoothly with a minimum of maintenance 18 years from now? And please don't tell me about smoke and pollution: my little kicker running for ten minutes to get me in and out of the harbor is NOT the environmental problem!

Brooke

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Amen and Amen. It appears that the new 4 strokes, foisted on us by the "environmentalists", have tranfered the joys of powerboat ownership to the sailing community. Frankly, if I wanted to be a weekend mechanic I'd buy a stinkpot.

As for fuel efficiency and "pollution", I go through about six gallons of gas a season with the two stroke '96 Johnson 9.9 Sailmaster that I bought new as a leftover model two seasons ago. I don't believe that that kind of usage will kill all the fish or break my piggy bank.

My original outboard, an '83 9.9 Evinrude Yachtwinn, which still runs sweet, is sitting in my gagarge in case I need a spare.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 11:08:34

Brooke reminded me of a perspective that may be changing... For many years... it seemed that everyone was happy with whatever outboard they had... they all seemed to do well and it seemed like a win win deal.

Are the outboards becoming too sophisticated and bringing problems with that... or we are becoming more demanding?

Many of them have certainly gotten too heavy... The result... is that a motor is chosen based on whether it will support cruising or as Brooke indicates... is a kicker to get in and out of the slip.

During my 2002 cruise, we had horrible sailing weather... Fifty hours of outboard time were needed. A smoking, smelly, noisy outboard would not have provided the necessities of comfort for that cruise. However, that time equates to 83 trips for Brooke in and out of the harbor and in ten minute segments, those things don't become an issue. Not knowing how many times Brooke sails in a year... lets just say he sails 83 times equating to my yearly use of my outboard as most of my sailing is done during that summer cruise.... what works for Brooke, doesn't work for me. Lets further say... that while Brooke may not remove his outboard for security reasons, someone like him does. Removing my behemoth 83 times would be something akin to a death wish. What works for me, doesn't work for him.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 10/05/2003 11:11:04

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 12:04:34

"Are the outboards becoming too sophisticated and bringing problems with that... or we are becoming more demanding "?

IMHO. Yes...and Yes... (well the EPA anyway).

Try to do a tune up on your own car lately? The systems (especially engine management) are so sophisticated that you are unable to do much anything except call the "technician" (they used to be called mechanics).

Like I mentioned in some other posts, the challenges of trying to meet pollution specs on a small carburated engine have rendered these systems sensitive to the slightest contamination.

A jet sized to miser a little fuel to an 8 HP engine has got to be very tiny. One little particle or a little varnish buildup and you're done.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the next generation of small Honda outboards appear with fuel injection and computerized management systems.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 12:26:55

Although I don't have the inclination to cruise with my C 25 anymore, I've made the trip to Block Island from New York several times and I didn't find my old 50 to 1 Evinrude smelly or stinky at all. Certainly not nearly as smelly as an auxilliary diesel when the wind is over the stern. In fact, IMO, the #1 criterion for all eqipment selected for cruising is reliability and in that vein, the two stroke fit the bill. I consider my outboard as another piece of safety equipment and when I call on it to get me out of trouble, I want it to start and run every time.

An outboard that you can't rely on is sort of like an anchor that often doesn't hold when you need it most.

I do agree that the one type fits all approach doesn't work, but the "environmentalists" have swung the pendulum over to the side of four stroke fits all and that simply isn't right. Afterall, it's not like we're burning 60-120 gallons of fuel an hour, day after day, like our powerboating friends.

Those who choose the percieved benefits of four stokes should be free to make that choice; and those of us for whom two strokes are the obvious choice should remain free to do so as well.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 12:34:46

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> one thing to ensure when starting the Honda 8 from that vintage (now called the Honda 8 Classic), is the throttle setting<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Arlyn hits the nail on the head IMHO. I have numerous gas burning devices, whacker, blowers, chipper, pressure washer, tractors, chainsaw and yes, a Honda OB. They all have their own specific starting instructions, some of which appear ridiculous. The Sears whacker requires choke on full, six pushes on the primer bulb, five pulls on the starter cord with full throttle, and then one pull with a guaranteed startup at full throttle and half choke. This goofy procedure is in the manual. If you don't follow it, no gas in the cylinder, ether from a spray can, or any other form of violence, be it physical or verbal is going to bring the darn thing to life.

Point is, they all need to be started a certain way, or they wont start at all. The Honda is the same way. If the throttle is not in just the right place, it wont start, period. If it is, it starts.....always.

250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 12:48:02

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I wouldn't be surprised to see the next generation of small Honda outboards appear with fuel injection and computerized management systems.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You're probably right. Larger outboards, the 100hp and larger models used on ski and bass boats, have been fuel injected for a few years, and I understand that fuel injection is making an appearance in some up-scale motorcycles and snowmobiles.
The point that was made about the tiny orifice size of the jets in the Honda 8 should tell everyone that owns one that it is crucial to use at least one in-line filter in the fuel line and to keep fresh gas in the tank. If you only use a few gallons a year, dump out whatever's left at the end of the season and refill with fresh gas at the start of the next season. Steel tanks should be checked for rust and any other contaminents. The only problem with a Honda I've ever had was with a 5hp that I had on my old Catalina 22. It wouldn't start one day and I found the float bowl was gunked up. Cleaned the carb and replaced the gas with fresh and had no more problems. I had a Mariner 8 (2-stroke) on my first sailboat, a Mac 25, and while it ran well at 3000~5000 rpm, it was unreliable at low throttle or idle, frequently fouling the plugs and stalling out just when it was needed most, like when aspproaching a dock when you have to go slow. I suppose that by 2010, 2-strokes will be banned pretty much everywhere in California anyway, except maybe in the ocean.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25WK/TR Mk. IV #5857 "Quiet Time"
Folsom Lake, CA

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 13:52:47

I know that the throttle setting is very sensitive and made several adjustments with it, trying to find the right spot. But it didn't start. As I've reported this o/b has been a constant pain in *^^ and I have absolutely no confidence in it. I cannot trust that it will start. So we are going to part ways. Jim's algorith for checking the problem might be fun to try, but still, I wouldn't trust the o/b. We'll see if I can work on it when I get it home.

I appreciate Brooke's comments about the 2 stroke. I've bought into the environemntally safe idea of the 4 stroke, but my use, like Brooke's is 5 - 10 minutes at a time, and I burn only 6 gallons a season max. So mixing gas isn't such a big deal. I've done that with every other o/b I've had.

I'll keep you posted about we order and get, and well it runs next year. 

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2003 : 17:53:04

Arlyn, as usual, you are very wise. Thank you.

I have, in fact, endured long days motoring in a hot and windless Chesapeake August. The 2 stroke do whine, don't it? But it works nonetheless, simply, reliably, and cheaply. Smoke? It comes out through the prop, like other outboards except at idle.

On our 1999 two week trip on the bay, I'm sure we motored for almost fifty hours. The motor worked fine, and if our sanity was challenged, it was the heat, not the motor.

How often do I sail? 25 - 40 days per year.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 15:35:41

The weights for the new Nissans are listed here.
http://www.defender.com/inflatables/page7.html

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 23:23:22

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I am becoming an expert on this Honda motor.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Jim, your explanation of how to troubleshoot the Honda needs to be put somewhere convenient on the website. Tech section? Or maybe there should be a special spot where all the good ideas for fixing things could go? <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Meanwhile, I just copied and pasted it into a favorite Sailing file on my computer. I'm sure it will come in handy with our 97 Honda 8hp which I just got serviced during the past summer (about $200 locally). <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Thanks

Gary & Susie Norgan
1989 C25 tall/wing
Classical Cat #5944
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc35b3127cce94ddf43b35f60000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 00:46:42

I'll write up the troubleshooting guide and submit it to Karen as a Tech Tip. I also have a manual on this motor.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 08:13:24

After reading all these outboard problems I'm glad my mid-80s vintage Honda 4 stroke is still going strong. There are several other boats nearby w/ the same old Honda 4 stroke too. I wonder why that early 4 stroke model works reliably & the newer models have such problems?

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

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