Association Forum - Low Rider?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Low Rider?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

CB
1st Mate

Member Avatar

54 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/09/2003 : 20:48:36

While at the dock, the bow on my '81 swing keel/standard rig sits a little low in the water. I wouldn't really care, but it stains the gelcoat between the bottom paint and bootstripes, and when it rains a little water sits in the forward portion of the cockpit.
I store the boat w/ the keel down, and nothing unusual is stored in the v-berth.
Is this normal, anyone have similar issues?
Thanks,
Chris
#2672"Deez Knots"
'81 sk/sr traditional interior
Lake Norman, NC

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 20:58:22

Most early models sit bow down with an empty cockpit...
IMHO a design er... shall we say .. 'anomaly'.

Crank your keel up just far enough to make her sit on her marks.

In my experience, 1/4 to 1/3 the way up and she will
sit pretty level... cranking that far up shouldn't stress
things very much either.

Your other options are to repaint the water line or to adjust the balance by adding weight to the stern.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 10:06:20

Same boat, Same issue. Since I prefer to have the keel down when moored I added about 120 lbs of ballast (4 lead bricks) that I have placed between the transom and the interior liner. I have a wood access plate at the aft end of the quarterberth that when removed gives me access to that space.

It trims out the boat so that most of the water drains from the cockpit, pretty much gives me a neutral trim. I do not see any additional squatting of the boat when sailing or motoring.

The down side is that I choose to move it forward to the sole in front of the V berth when trailering and I would haul it out if I was racing. However, as infrequent as those events are; it works well for my situation.

I have heard of others putting in drains in the front of the cockpit and almost went that route as well, but I like my simple solution for now.

Clif Thompson
Treasurer C-25/250 National Association.
svMoxie '81 25 sk

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 13:49:32

I'm glad to know that its not just my c25 that sits waupyjawed
while at berth. It kinda disheartening coming to and leaving
the boat looking like it has 50 gallons of water under the vberth.
Raising the keel to even it out sounds ok but I really would
like to keep wear and tear on that system to a minimum.
Adding weight to the stern sounds like a good idea but I'm not
sure I want to add that much just for asthetic reasons.

Does the added weight affect hull performance?

How is hull performace affected without it?

If anyone has any experience with this I know I'd appreciate
hearing it.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

CB
1st Mate

Members Avatar

54 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 14:14:39

Clif,
Where does one obtain 30lb lead bricks?
That sounds like and easy solution, especially considering I don't trailer my boat and don't race.
Thanks,
Chris

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 15:25:10

As alternative to lead bricks, I'm considering relocating the water tank (or adding another) to the general area of the starboard transom.

With a water tank, it's easy to adjust the ballast weight and you can simply drain the tank if you want to trailer... rather than wrestle lead out of there.

Any added weight decreases performance... (slightly)
To make a boat faster, add lightness.

-- bb

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 16:16:28

"Any added weight decreases performance... (slightly)
To make a boat faster, add lightness."

So does that mean if I tie on a few dozen helium ballons it will
help the boat's performance? (except for drag of course)
Sorry bb I couldn't help it. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I guess what I mean is the difference in my hull footprint
now and what it would be with weight added in the stern
enough to change the overall performance or is it a mute point?

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 21:36:47

I think a shift of some weight to the stern wouldn't have a big impact on performance... Even adding 150 lbs will be just another medium-sized crew member.

(above true unless you're a hard-core racer.. in which case you probably won't be in a C-25 anyway)

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 22:06:35

This is a picture of the water line mark I inherited from the PO, is it about the degree of bow down that everyone else has? Note my PO painted over the boot stripe.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/s-Starboard.jpg" border=0>

It is best to keep the transom out of the water. Water is like all other fluids and will create drag if it forms an eddy. That is one of the reasons to have crew sit forward, so the water has a clean escape from the hull.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/11/2003 09:32:33

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 11:39:45

My '79 C-25 (#1205), sat noticeably bow down, even when I had moved all weight possible to the back of the lazarette and quarterberth. Cranking up the keel did even out the waterline, but it is risky to leave the keel up while the boat is moored and unattended. My guess is that the factory put on the waterline stripe to be level with an "average" number of crew, 2 or 3, sitting in the cockpit. 3 average size adults equals about 400 to 500 pounds, so you can see what a difference that would make to the waterline stripe.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25WK/TR Mk. IV #5857 "Quiet Time"
Folsom Lake, CA

Edited by - on

NuNees
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
125 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 12:33:03

Wheew !
Am I glad I saw this thread ... I thought my gelcoat had sucked up a ton of water under the Vee Berth. I had been thinking seriously of hauling out and redoing the whole bottom ... Not any more!
BTE Frank, my '85 had been sitting like yours, but not quite as deep on the boot stripe ... about 1/2 way through the 3" stripe. Yesterday I put about 5 turns on the winch and she raised to the bottom of the 3" stripe. A couple nore turns should get it.
Fantsatic news! I should have raised the question myself, but ...
Thank you, all.

Bill jaworowski,
Moonbeams.
C25 SK/SR #4953
Sailing Lake Carlyle, IL.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 14:06:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
a little water sits in the forward portion of the cockpit.
Chris
#2672"Deez Knots"
'81 sk/sr traditional interior
Lake Norman, NC
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
BTW water does not sit in the front of my cockpit. The line in my picture still drains to the rear. I'm an '82.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 16:16:33

Compared to the photo, mine sits almost exactly the same. It will accumulate water in the forward portions of the cockpit unless I crank up the keel just enough to level it out.

(which IMHO isn't putting all that much tension on it)

I too am reluctant to leave the keel cranked all the way up when the boat is un-attended.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2003 : 12:42:38

My experience with Moxie is that the weight in the stern did not affect that sailing trim at all. I expected to find that the stern would squat more when under power but my decidedly un-scientific experiments (running with and without the weights in place and watching the water flow) did not demonstrate any appreciable difference. That said, if I was racing I would remove it from the boat, along with just about everything else I have in the boat. It is simply for my convience and to keep the water from pooling in the front of the cockpit.

The amount of weight I used was only enough to shift the water towards the stern. I have had as much as 300 lbs back there and that really keeps a dry cockpit but was not needed.

As for where to get them... I had a gift horse. I ran a xenon lab and we had all these lead bricks in the sample area as a shield for when I was preparing doses. When we stopped using the lab and broke down the equipment I saved the bricks. If I didn't have them I would go to a used sporting good store (like the Play It Again Sports in my area) and get some plastic coated weights. Often these are concrete filled and would work very well for this situation.

Clif Thompson
Treasurer C-25/250 National Association.
svMoxie '81 25 sk

Edited by - on

Steve Kostanich
1st Mate

Members Avatar

88 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2003 : 17:27:44

Here's my take on the "bow down" trim of the swing keel.

I don't really know which came first the swing or fin keel version of the C-25, but I believe the water line was established for the fin version. As such the mass of the swing keel is foreward of the fin's mass, giving the bow down attitude.

It drives me nuts also, as the water line gets crud growing on it (I scrub it off on about a 2 week cycle), and the boat looks wackey in the berth. To help, I keep my anchor, chain, and rhode in a low plastic tray under the starboard quarter berth. ( yeah I know it's a poor safety proceedure to not have the anchor ready for instant use, but it's in the proper place when I cruise.)

Permanatly moving the battery and water tank as far aft as possible would probably help the most, but what a job just for appearance sake and eliminating easly removed growth.

Steve Kostanich C-25 1119 Equinox sr/sk

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

Members Avatar

844 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2003 : 20:32:36

Interesting topic. Our old C22 had the forward drains, the C25 had the aft end "holes," which, I believe, are far superior. Of course, that assumes that the "pitch" is in the right direction. Boat trim, modified enough to make that work with whatever you chose to it with, aren't enough to affect a C25's performance. Sure beats the water puddling forward.

You may be surprised to learn that the new C380 has a BIG problem - a majority of the boats I have seen have major puddles at the forward end of their cockpits. Catalina's answer is "retrim."

Don't 'ya just love it - easier in a C25 than a C380. I know a few VERY unhappy customers - don't know if they've fixed it, but it sure is a bummer. So, Frank & Gerry, do I move the anchors or the forward berth all the way back?????? (Maybe just put a 9.9 HP, long shaft four stroke out back!)

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2003 : 21:30:45

Hi all,

I'm sort of late joining this thread, but here's my two cents.

When I first got my 1979 C-25, I repainted to the molded in boot stripe. After a couple of years in the water, and a few hundred pounds of added gear, the stock boot stripe was growing crud. On a subsequent haulout, I raised the boot stripe exactly one stripe-width.

Because of the curvature of the hull near the waterline, the stripe width needs to vary so as to appear to be a constant width. (A good reason not to use tape.) By measuring the width every foot or so, and making a new mark that same distance above the old stripe, I avoided the hassle of setting up a laser transit (or doing a lot of math). As any fastidious math geek will be quick to point out, this method isn't rigorous or precise. However, the results are good enough for my eye. And I no longer get slime at the waterline.

The trim issue is always there, but is worse on smaller boats, and particularly swing keels. My cockpit drains fine, but then I have a lot of extra weight aft. This includes: deep SS swim ladder, extra long shaft elec. start 4-stroke outboard, group 24 cranking battery, 12gal fuel tank, 15gal water bladder, and spare anchor. Further forward, but still aft of the center of bouyancy, I've also upgraded to two group 27 batteries and a large electrical panel.

Regarding cockpit puddles, I respectfully suggest that the designers, instead of making wishful estimates of final trim, and/or making work for the boat owners, simply put large drains in all four corners of the cockpit to begin with.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.