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Swing Keel Blues

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jaredeking
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/21/2003 : 10:25:10

I have a 1986 Catalina 25 swing keel. I've noticed that as the boat rocks (ie: from a stink boat passing by while at the pier) or when I tack, a "thunking" sound is coming from the hull, in the vecinity of the swing keel. It almost sounds like the swing keel has a little play at the pivot point and as the weight shifts, the keel moves until it "thunks." This is all theory mind you.

On a different note that may or may not be connected, I noticed that I am collecting a little more water in the bilge than I used to. It really isn't much and it only happens when I'm underway. Do you think the two may be connected? I'm not sure how the whole swing keel assembly works.

I talked to a boat yard and the foreman (is that the right name?) said it was common and probably not a problem, but that if I wanted some piece of mind, I should hull the boat out and have them inspect it. Of course, that is gonna run me 500 plus and then there is the 200 dollar haul out fee. One one hand, I don't want to waste money for something that is normal, but at the same time, I don't want to loose my 1500 lbs keel in the SF Bay either. Any wisdom out there. Thanks in advance.

-Jared

Jared on LA BELLAMER in San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 10:48:55

Hi Jared,

It sounds like you've got the swing keel "clunk" ... it is fairly common ... Catalina Direct sells a kit to refit the pivot pin so that the clunking goes away ... obviously, you've got to pull the boat out of the water and drop the keel to replace the pin.

I don't know why some swingers develop this problem while others don't. My boat is much older than yours, and I've never heard the keel make any noise at the pivot pin ... thank goodness. I really don't know if it is a serious problem or not ... others will certainly have an opinion on that. My gut feeling is that it is more of a nuisance than a threat, but don't take my word for that.

As far as the water in your bilge ... if you are only getting it while underway it could be something as simple as trapped rain water that finds its way to the bilge after you've done some heeling. I think it is also possible to get water in the bilge from the lower gudgeon when the boat "squats" in the water, but I'm not sure about that.

I hope that helps some ... there are plenty of others who've had experience with this problem, and I hope some of them respond. At any rate, I don't think you need to be on pins and needles worrying about your keel falling to the bottom of the bay.

Good luck!

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 11:53:28

Jared,

I'm not the one to answer your questions, but have a few thoughts.

San Francisco Bay has some pretty strong currents and tide. The wrong kind of environment for our boats. The working of the kell can and has damaged the centerboard trunk, and that can cause the boat to leak and even sink. If the bilge water is coming only while under way, then this is less likely.

San Francisco Bay would be a good place for a fin or wing keel. One of your options would be to think of replacing the swing keel and replace it with a wing. A couple of our skippers are into theat process now, and that is a costly option for you.

Regardless maintenance of the swing keel is vital. If it my boat I'd want to explore the possibilities of cause before doing anything, and then make my decision.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce31b3127cce8f8c0cbf1bca0000001010 " border=0>
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY
On the hard

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 12:54:12

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have a 1986 Catalina 25 swing keel. I've noticed that as the boat rocks (ie: from a stink boat passing by while at the pier) or when I tack, a "thunking" sound is coming from the hull, in the vecinity of the swing keel. Of course, that is gonna run me 500 plus and then there is the 200 dollar haul out fee. One one hand, I don't want to waste money for something that is normal, but at the same time, I don't want to loose my 1500 lbs keel in the SF Bay either. Any wisdom out there. Thanks in advance.

-Jared
Jared on LA BELLAMER in San Francisco Bay
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Is your keel down all of the time? Mine has a lot more play when it is up or even partially up. Do you know anyone with SCUBA gear that will let you go under the boat and have a look? If you do not like what you find then...

Do you have a trailer? Can you borrow one? Why would you need someone to "haul" a boat like ours? I think the perfect deal would be to borrow a Cat 25 fin keel trailer (it would give you room to drop the keel) and research the suggestions on this site for dropping a keel safely and just do it. $10 at a hardware store and you are ready to go! If you find serious problems then you can decide about who to pay big bucks for what,(repair or wing retro).

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 13:40:45

Hi Jared,

I'm very sensitive to water in the bildge, having discovered a considerable leak in the aft side of the exposed portion of the keel trunk in the main cabin. The leaking was inconsistent. The first time I noticed it, it was the first time ever I had backed the boat (we have a trailer) down the ramp and into the water. After about 5 minutes monkeying around, still hooked up to the trailer but floatingonly, I found about 2 inches of water in the bilge. Needless to say, we didn't say on what was supposed to be our first sail. The second time was the next day. We were going to put the boat in and observe all the through-hulls and other suspected areas. This time there was nothing until, interestingly, we lowered the keel. It was then we found the source of the leak.

A local fiberglass guy re-glassed that area of the trunk with lots of support. Best $200.00 I've spent. But I'm still getting the wing keel conversion, partly because of peace of mind, partly because it was in the plan all along, just not so soon. Hopefully it will be finished in a couple weeks.

Your keel clunk was address appropriate in an earlier post, I think.

Good luck,

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce27b3127cce8fc3c58ee15b0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:10:56

Jared,

Go to the 25 forum and restate your question. Maintenance of the swing keel, especially in salt water is a must. Hauling, inspecting and if necessary replacing pins, cables sheaves etc. is very important. While you're there you can fix the clunk.

It's not just a matter of losing the keel, it's the damage and likely quick sinking it causes on the way out that makes you want to take this serious.

Oscar, 250WB Lady Kay.....no picture...in the studio.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:34:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Why would you need someone to "haul" a boat like ours?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

A lot of C25 owners do not have trailers so they need to be hauled out with a lift by a marina.

I, for one, do not have a trailer and require a marina to haul my boat out and store it on a cradle every winter.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:53:35

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Why would you need someone to "haul" a boat like ours?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
A lot of C25 owners do not have trailers so they need to be hauled out with a lift by a marina.
I, for one, do not have a trailer and require a marina to haul my boat out and store it on a cradle every winter.
Don Lucier
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I can imagine fin keels not having trailers but why would someone buy a swing keel without a trailer? I just doesn't make sense to me. I guess over the years people could have sold their trailers but it still seems like buying light bulbs when you don't have electricity. I guess the deal that goes down at the time of purchase is a little different for everyone.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

jaredeking
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 15:12:34

First of all, thanks so much for the wise words of wisdom. To answer some questions, let me start off by saying, I do in fact have a trailer. I've only used it once though which was when I was transfered with the military and trailered the boat from Pensacola, Florida out here to San Francisco. Getting the trailer deep enough in the water in order to get the boat up on it was such a royal hassel, that when I got it out to San Francisco, I just paid some one to haul it..... well I guess... into the water. I ended up having to tie one end of a four inch line around the back of the truck and the other end to the trailer, wade out in water up to my chest to push the trailer deep enough into the water and then pull it all up and out of the water utilizing the severely inadequate third (well actually fifth) wheel at the tounge of the trailer. I have since vowed never to pull the boat out of the water with it again. I don't know, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe the boat ramp I was using wasn't steep enough. Not sure.

Second, sounds like I should go ahead replace the pins. Sounds scary. Hopefully Catalina includes the directions on how to conduct such an operation when they sell the maintenance kit.

Third, while sitting at the dock, the amount of water does not increase. I can leave it there for two weeks and nothing substatial is noticed. I then take it out for a day sail and come back to find a inch or two in the bilge. The lower gudgeon idea sounds like a possiblility. I'll check it out.

Once again, thanks for the advice. So far it is really helping.

-Jared

Jared on LA BELLAMER in San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 15:55:36

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I can imagine fin keels not having trailers but why would someone buy a swing keel without a trailer?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

It all depends on how one uses their boat.

My previous boat was a swinger on a trailer, but that boat was only trailered twice per season...once in the spring to the marina and once in the fall to bring it home. Additionally, the trailer made it extremely difficult to do keel/hull work.

Now I keep my boat on a cradle at a marina, which costs me $300.00 per year. For that I get to simply pull up to the marina travel lift for haulout, powerwash, 6 months storage, and splashing in the spring.

Things that I don't require since I no longer trailer...

$30,000 low gas mileage tow vehicle
$5,000 galvanized trailer
Trailer maintenance(brakes, tires, lights,...etc)
Trailer insurance, registration, and plates
Storage area for trailer in summer
Storage area for boat and trailer in winter
Deep launching ramps

So for me it makes more sense to go without a trailer even if I owned a swinger.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 16:04:15

A couple points..

1) Cut up a sponge (rag, or whatever) and stuff it down the hose where the keel cable comes up. There is a strong possibility you are getting 'splash water' from the pipe.

2) If you don't have, one, order the Catalina 25 'Owners Bible' from Catalina Direct. It's a wealth of information and the best $10 you'll ever spend on your boat. Includes the info and parts source you'll need for maintaining your keel.

3) Finding a launch ramp with a good slope is critical for launching a C25. In addition, your trailer should have an 'extended tongue' that you use when splashing the boat. Mine extends nearly 12' and the rear tires barely get wet when launching on Humboldt Bay ramps.
(which I think have a fairly 'standard' slope)

WOTAM - '77 Catalina 25 SK/SR Sail Number 158

Edited by - on

Steve Kostanich
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 16:44:58

Jared,
Since you have a trailer, simply have a yard lift the boat onto it. That is what I do up here in Washington, cost is about $95.00. You can then do the needed work at your leisure, if you have a place for such. I got tired of the ramp hassel myself, and my trailer is not galvanized. I have not "ramped" in 18 years.

Steve Kostanich C-25 Equinox 1119 sr/sk

Edited by - on

Earl Landers
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 20:16:48

Jared,
Another possibility is the keel hose. When I bought my boat 18 months ago, the keel hose was so brittle that it would crumble in my grip. This is one part that you don't want to replace in the water, but you can do a visual inspection. ClamBeach indicated that you could stuff the top of the hose with a sponge, etc. I would use caution if your hose is like mine was. It has also been posted here in the past that some swingers leak water up the hose/pipe when their boats are reversed under power. I have never experienced it, but I don't back very far to get out of my slip.

Earl Landers
'83 C25 SR/SK
"Gentle Spirit"
http://home.bak.rr.com/edlgs

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 20:52:08

I thought about the possibilty that the hose itself might be 'shot' shortly after I posted my last reply. Any cracking or brittleness should indicate immediate replacement. (out of the water !)

If you haven't done any maintenance on the keel assembly before and are uncertain of it's history... it's probably time to inspect the entire area. Cable, hose, clamps, turning ball, hinge, keel pin and the winch itself.

.

WOTAM - '77 Catalina 25 SK/SR Sail Number 158

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 00:07:01

Hi Jared,

I have been going through much of what you are experiencing.

As for trailers and swing keels. When we lived in Colorado we had little trouble getting our boat on or off the trailer. In Florida (Panama City) we have had a bit more trouble due to shallow water with ramps which are not steep. If it works well for you to get your boat out on a trailer for work or travel give it a bit more time and effort.

For the past year or so we have been taking on quite a bit of water when under way. At the dock with keel up we stayed quite dry. As soon as we dropped the keel and sailed we took on water. We spent many days and alot of time to be absolutley sure we were not leaking through the keel cable pipe, gudgeons,through hulls, motor mounts,windows,hatches, etc. and finally realized after about a year and a half of observation the problem was getting worse and it was not coming through all the suspect areas. Again we only had the problem with keel down and underway. When it got to the point that we were concerned with the fact that we would take on 20 or 25 gallons of water (salt water, not fresh or rain water) on an afternoon sail we decided it was time to do something.

We are now in the middle of a swing to wing conversion. I am not suggesting you do this unless you have really looked at what is happening with your boat and eliminated all other possible causes. In our case we felt the keel trunk was leaking and have now found that to be the case. Look at every possible cause first but keep in mind that if the water infiltration gets worse look at your keel trunk.

I am posting pictures of what we found once the swing keel was removed.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce01b3127cce80208b9133d20000001610" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce01b3127cce8020921b73cc0000001610" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce01b3127cce8020a819f2e30000001610" border=0>

Good Luck and Keep Dry

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade
80 C25 #2126 sr/sk
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d636b3127cce8c9d4c83e7890000002010" border=0>

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jaredeking
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 22:53:06

Wow, those pics are great. A lot of things are starting to make sense all of a sudden. Do you happen to have any more.

[quote]
I am posting pictures of what we found once the swing keel was removed.

Jared on LA BELLAMER in San Francisco Bay

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 23:28:03

Wow.. that's quite a structural crack.. you can see that when the keel was down against the hull the crack would really tend to open up.

I'm guessing the keel had been dropped sometime... almost looks like there was a previous 'repair' in that area ???

WOTAM - '77 Catalina 25 SK/SR Sail Number 158

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