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Rudder choice now an option for C250 Water Ballast

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Arlyn Stewart
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Initially Posted - 10/30/2003 : 19:59:33

I just talked with Gerry Douglas, and he offered that yes... there is a long and short 3rd generation rudder. Traditionally they have put the long on the wing and the short on the water ballast. It was his opinion that the short provided adequate control while allowing the rudder to be set prior to launching the water ballast but agreed to provide the long upon request for a water ballast boat.

He was firm about not providing the beaching rudder option, claiming it had experienced too many warranty problems.

They are however selling me a replacement beaching rudder.

Water ballast owners who may want greater rudder control and who are willing to set the rudder after launch... may now purchase the longer blade.

In my opinion, those who will consider their sailing needs to be aggressive or who will cruise and rely upon an auto pilot, should opt for the longer unless their sailing venue offers skinny water risk.

It remains unfortunate that a beaching rudder will not be a new boat option on the C250 w/b.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 10/30/2003 23:30:27

Oscar
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Response Posted - 10/30/2003 : 20:35:19

I also just got off the phone with Gerry.....and was told that the reason the WK rudder is longer is because the WK has more draft. He was not willing to admit, or argue for that matter, that the WB shortie is too short. He also mentioned that you can heel the WK more than the WB, which should be held under 20 degrees....maybe the rudder is short so it WILL round up?

He was willing to sell me a long third generation rudder. Arlyn, will the cutouts fit? How about the hardware? Also, I'm not sure about being able to run aground with the rudder only, although you have to be in some pretty thin water to do it.....

He was also willing to sell me a beaching rudder, with no warrantee.

Either way, it's going to cost me money.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 10/30/2003 21:53:20

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/30/2003 : 22:39:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">He also mentioned that you can heel the WK more than the WB, which should be held under 20 degrees....maybe the rudder is short so it WILL round up?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think there is one reason, to pull out of the water with the longer, would rip it off the transom of the water ballast because its so low on the trailer. Catalina

The 20 degrees was a figure given a long time ago prior to the 3rd generation rudder. As can be imagined, 20 degrees doesn't allow enough forgivness zone. Mine with the 2nd generation will handle 40 degrees at which time rounding up is welcomed.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 07:06:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">He was also willing to sell me a beaching rudder, with no warrantee. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Oscar how much did he quote you for the beaching rudder? I will probably be talking with Gerry or Kent today.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 09:05:54

I was not surprised that Catalina didn't reverse and add the beaching rudder back as an option on the water ballast model. A higher aspect ratio rudder suffers much greater loads than does a shorter rudder. But, it is also more efficient. They continue to affirm that the problems associated with the rudder were mostly operator caused.

Gerry also was not willing to be definitive about the small cracks on my rudder. He did not think that adding carbon fiber to those areas was viable because he feels that carbon fiber and fiberglass are too different in their tensile characteristics that all the load would be on the carbon fiber initially and if it failed, the result would be a shock load impacting the remaining fiberglass and overwhelming it. My gut feeling is that the cracks are simply gel coat... but having said that, they would be susceptible to water infiltration on a slipped boat.

It was very good news that they are supporting replacement of the rudder blades and providing the beaching rudder albeit with no warranty. And that they will supply the 3rd long upon request. These at least add options.

There is one other that continues to play into this. Just yesterday and totally coincidental with the phone calls with Catalina, I received the promised update from Bill Bosworth. His testing of the wing add on to the 3rd short has continued and he offered these words.

<hr noshade size="1">We've been using both the 3rd (with bottom wing) and 2nd gen rudders for the past month. My wife and I both agree that we like the 3rd gen best. We've had very good sailing for the past few weeks with winds often in the 10 to 20+ mph range. We've generally been sailing under these conditions with one reef in the main. I was keeping the board just about all the way down with the 3rd gen rudder (I felt that I needed to feel a little more helm), but now find that when the wind is up, that it helps to raise the board. I wish I could say for sure just how high, but I would guess about 15-20 degrees. I was running with the boat nearly back at a 40 degree angle (that may be an exaggeration) with the 2nd gen rudder. I feel that I have adequate rudder control with very little helm. In the worst of gusts I need to spill the main some, or head the boat either up or run off, depending on the point of sail. There have been a couple of times when the rudder cavitated and I lost some control.
<hr noshade size="1">
As far as racing, I don't think this mod should present an issue. As it now stands, there are so many frigging rudders that one more variation doesn't amount to an issue. No one will should find fault with attempts to gain better control.

This mod is a non destructive one and is in my opinion worthy. Bill is a long time sailor and his perspective is appreciated. If others concur with his results... this may prove to be the best course to gain more control without going deeper or spending a bunch of boat units

Again, much depends upon the nature of the sailing done. If the sailing venue is aggressive or the auto pilot is relied upon, then I don't think the stock 3rd short gets the job done.

Control and good handling are very important to me. Each of us as always will make decisions based on our perceived needs.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 10/31/2003 09:10:19

Oscar
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Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 09:26:29

Good science is founded in quantifying....(measuring). I just had an idea, which I will execute the next time I have a chance, or if someone out there sees fit they can do it first:

*Buy a cheap disposable underwater camera.
*With the right lighting in clear water, take a picture, side view, of the boats under water portion, clearly depicting the position of the center board.
*Pull in one foot of the centerboard control line, take a picure.
*Repeat the process untill the board is up.
*Scan the pictures and post them to this web-site.

This way we can say that x-feet is y-degrees, and we will know how many feet of line corresponds with what draft. One could even mark the line.......

Make sense?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 10/31/2003 09:30:55

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 10:12:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This way we can say that x-feet is y-degrees,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sure, with one caveat...at some point, Catalina picked up on what we were doing and started instlling a stop block. Early hull numbers allow the board to go fully down, but later hulls don't.

I use such a reference mark on my line made with indelible marker. It is two tugs of the line from full down....

Edited by - on

zebra50
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Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 12:01:09

Can anyone tell me what were the problems that Catalina was having with the beaching rudder that it stopped making it available? I had my beaching rudder (hull 370) frozen when the tiller steering was installed and have been thinking about reactivating it.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 14:45:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">One could even mark the line.......
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Because of discussions on this forum about problems with the lifting cable, and Arlyns assertions that the boat sails better with the CB raked aft. I marked my line in the cockpit. I did this while the boat was up on a lift getting it's bottom painted. I wanted to have some idea of where the CB was at all times while sailing, and to avoid letting the CB all the way down or all the way up. There was some conjecture that all the way up and down speed up CB cable failure.

Method I used. I lowered the CB all the way down then raised it till the CB was up about a foot from its lowest position and marked the CB line in the cockpit at the pulley. Then I raised it till it was halfway up marked the line again with two marks. Then once again pulled the CB up till the aft end (but foreward edge)was about a foot below the bottom of the boat and marked the line agin with a single mark.

The boat is on the trailer but I think I can measure the distance between the marks starting from the CB all the way up. I am going to relocate the boat this weekend and can get the measurements off my CB line for you if you want. It was not done in a most scientific manner but it has been enough for me so far.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 15:36:46

Jay,

Catalalina claims that it was wrongly being operated in a raked back position and that resulted in failures and too much warranty service.

I'm guessing that Edson was weighing in on the warranty service issue as well as they had a lot of cable failures that they attributed to too much torque on the steering system.

The rivet detent hold down system was sorry... sorry Catalina if your reading this but it was a sad piece of design for which they shouldn't be proud. This rivet dentent hold down wore and alowed the rudder to rake aft a few degrees but thats all it took to place great quantities of rudder torque on the helm.

You are at some risk with the very deep high aspect blade of grounding it and suffering damage by having it bolted thru if you sail in areas that may include shallow water.

If wanting to redo, you can bolt the actuator arm on from inside the rudder head by dissasembly and using flat head bolts and countersinking the holes slightly.

Then the rudder head can be modified per the instructions to rake the rudder forward slightly. This followed by the suggest hold down with a bungee thru a cheek block. The information is on my web site.

Its not an issue unless you sail in skinny water or possibly you may be experiencing more helm torque than you would like. That torque is greatly reduced by raking the rudder forward a bit.

Some of us have also noted some hairline cracks beneath the rudder head... there may have been some rudder failures do to the strain on the rudder. High aspect ratio rudders provide the greatest lift to drag ratio... and in so doing suffer greater loads. If unbolting the rudder, don't allow it to rake back any while in use and it should be fine.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 08:21:59

I talked with Gerry, Kent, & Strictly Sail on Friday afternoon (conference call) about the cracks etc. along the leading edge of my rudder. Strictly Sail is sending the rudder back to them (CA, Catalina)for repair. They assured me that they were not just fixing the gel coat and that they would strip it down and rebuild the fiberglass.

Gerry was pretty firm about not selling me a beaching rudder. He and Kent were pretty adamant that the kick up was inferior and that the third was the best.

I also brought up the point that the third gen rudder on the WB is the deepest draft on the boat when the CB is up and that their published draft figures are erroneous. They said I must have the wrong rudder. My rudder is 27.5" to first notch - 30.5" to the second and 59" overall. The water line on the rudder is around the second notch.

I may be missing something, but doesn't that put the rudder lower than the bottom of the boat?

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 09:57:59

I dont think so....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 10:52:57

Draft with the board up is 20 inches... the 3rd short extends somewhere between 32-36 inches below the water. So, yes with the board up the rudder is 12-16 inches below.

The third long would be 24 - 28 inches below the raised centerboard.

I realy hate to be too critical, but I thought it was lame to rationalize that the wing could enjoy more heel than the water ballast thus the reason for a longer rudder on it. This totally voids a basic necessity for a forgivness zone on the water ballast boat in trade for easier launching.

The two boats have the same hull albeit one has more discplacement than the other and therefore rides 4 inches or so higher. That argument would allow for 4 inces of variation... but not twelve.

Gerry suggested to me also that the third short was adequate for the water ballast... but when he started out, he said that he recognized after viewing much of my web site that I'm not the typical c250 owner. When I affirmed to him that the 2nd beaching offered superior control and its other virtues were great for this boat... his answer was, we can't offer one again because of the warranty problems. He knew that he didn't have an arguement with me that the 3rd was better and didn't try.

The issue here is not that the 3rd is a better rudder... Its because they think that the operators of beaching rudders use them wrongly with the resulting warranty issues for Catalina and Edson.

I mentioned the holdown problem in both my letter and the phone call... and in a discussion with him three years ago. He has not once, admitted in any way that the hold down was a poor design and contributed to the warranty issues of Catalina and Edson. It is either out of character for him to do that or sound business practice to never admit to inadequacy in a product or, more than likely its that they just don't want to offer the rudder again... period and won't listen to any argument that supports it.

I have long speculated that Edson weighs in on this issue. I think its very possible that Edson got frustrated with the warranty problems brought on by the beaching rudder and didn't want to supply wheel sterring any more for the c250. We know historically that the wheel had been dropped for a short time as an option on the c250 just prior to the 3rd generation rudder. We also know that when it resumed, it was done so with a pull pull cables system instead of the push pull.

I'd bet a gold guiney that Edson said no more wheels with a beaching rudder and Catalina has to live with that.

Just for grins, someone call Edson and say, I've got this 25 foot sailboat with a beaching rudder that I want to add wheel steering. Listen to see if there is some concern mentioned about the rudder?

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 11/01/2003 11:33:56

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 12:35:46

I sit corrected.....

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 12:37:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the 3rd short extends somewhere between 32-36 inches below the water<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought Oscar said his was around 26 to 28" into the water.
As I stated before my 3rd long in 38" into the water.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We know historically that the wheel had been dropped for a short time as an option on the c250 just prior to the 3rd generation rudder.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe prior to the second blade. My boat in 2000 came with the second gen blade and wheel steering and it is the pull pull.

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 13:24:26

WHAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

You made me go out there......

My gen X rudder is 59 or so inches long and 28 or so stick in the water. I did not get the laser level out, but my (usually reliable) eyeball says its level with the bottom of the fully retracted center board.

So, If I were to get a 71 incher, it would stick out about a foot.....

Spike, if your listening, can this post be "sticky" at the top so I won't have to go out there again?

Aummmmmm....I'm in a happy place......aummmmm

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/01/2003 13:31:39

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 14:17:43

Oscar here is a link to Catalina's specs for the 250WB and the draft they have listed for the CB up is 1'-8". You are not calling them in error are you?

http://www.catalinayachts.com/yachts.cfm?act=model&id=16&link=spec
The waterline shows up pretty good on my rudder (I keep my boat @ a dock most of the time and the WL stain is now 2 years old) and I measure 29.5" waterline to bottom.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 22:22:30

I gave a 32-36 figure... it was a rough measurement... I wouldn't argue against a figure figure 30-34 inches. I have the wheel with its pedestal etc. and coaming winches and holding tank. I may sit a little lower aft.

Bryan... yes, if you have the pull pull cables, then you got the wheel very shortly after the wheel became available again. I'm guessing that the beaching rudder wasn't an option for you. The beaching rudder and wheel had been dropped when I talked to Gerry in October of '99.

The timing is why I speculate that the demise of the beaching rudder was somehow related to Edson. I also question the warranty issue being as big a deal for Catalina as it was for Edson... It was Edson who was making good on the failed cables. My complaint about the 2nd may have played into this as well... I had written a letter following my summer cruise in '99 outlining the serious problems with rudder torque using the 2nd generation beaching.

It took Catalina two months to respond to the letter asking for help, but by that time... I'd given up on them and found my own solution which was to rake the rudder forward on the bottom and redo the hold down. When Gerry finally called, he announced the 3rd was being designed and that the beaching rudder had been discontinued.

My efforts had proved so effective, that I had no desire to go to a blade rudder... especially one that compromised lift. It wasn't until everyone getting the 3rd had reported great control with it combined with the crazing cracks on my beaching that I chose to go 3rd.

When I did, I knew in five minutes that the 3rd had inadequate lift and hence why I struggled to reconcile every one claiming the lift was adequate. Bryan finally put the finger on all that of course when he pointed out that his 3rd was longer than the water ballast 3rd.

This all raises an interesting point... that internet communications have changed the market place. Catalina has to deal with us talking to each other.

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 23:41:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Catalina has to deal with us talking to each other<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As a result of this improved communication we were able to get the story somewhat straight. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that Catalina is now afraid of an onslaught of requests, and is therefore not providing a solution but rather resorting to "Spin" :We feel the rudder is adequate/Arlyn and I are not your typical 250 owners/and various BS explanations why the WK rudder is longer.....Any solutions I offer are met with a quote of multiple BU's....they do not seem to remember that my boat is under warrantee!!!!!

I think it's time to start picketing the place.

As far as the draft of the boat, Ray after everything that has transpired sofar, I challenge anything Catalina does. I will get out the laser level. (I hope the waterline is on straight....)

Oscar, in Phoenix for a nap.

Edited by - Oscar on 11/01/2003 23:46:15

Frank Hopper
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Response Posted - 11/02/2003 : 09:59:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 [b]Aummmmmm....I'm in a happy place......aummmmm
Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Great picture, I see who appears to be a 10 year old son and a 19 year old daughter, is that you behind the flag?

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/02/2003 10:02:08

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/02/2003 : 10:37:46

Actually, I'm in the dinghy taking the picture......here's a better shot of the crew. (Beard growth is directly related to days not worked

)

http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/familypictures5.html

Oscar, in Phoenix for a nap.

Edited by - Oscar on 11/02/2003 10:46:27

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 11/02/2003 : 14:23:59

OK Just came Back from Sea Major. I used the good old standby (not Oscars hi tech laser's) line level and string. The measurement from the bottom center of the CB (when raised all the way up)to the in the water waterline is none other than 29 1/2" Gerry D. and Oscar are right CB draft and WB rudder draft are equal. Catalina specs are wrong. What a surprise! The blue stripe measurement to bottom of CB is 32 1/2".
Arlyn have you ever measured your actual draft with CB up? Wondering if this is another design change from older WB hull to newer or a mistake

or planned deception to have more attractive draft #'s than the competition

Edited by - on

sailgal
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Response Posted - 11/02/2003 : 14:58:43

Catalina probably measured the draft with an empty boat...and ballast half full.

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/02/2003 : 15:19:09

Ray, thanks for saving me the trouble of recalibrating my carpenters eye.....

Oscar, about to leave Phoenix.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 11/02/2003 : 21:18:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Good science is founded in quantifying....(measuring). I just had an idea, which I will execute the next time I have a chance, or if someone out there sees fit they can do it first:

*Buy a cheap disposable underwater camera.
*With the right lighting in clear water, take a picture, side view, of the boats under water portion, clearly depicting the position of the center board.
*Pull in one foot of the centerboard control line, take a picure.
*Repeat the process untill the board is up.
*Scan the pictures and post them to this web-site.

This way we can say that x-feet is y-degrees, and we will know how many feet of line corresponds with what draft. One could even mark the line.......

Make sense?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I did get the measurements on my Centerboard line as I described in an earlier post. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I lowered the CB all the way down then raised it till the CB was up about a foot from its lowest position and marked the CB line in the cockpit at the pulley. Then I raised it till it was halfway up marked the line again with two marks. Then once again pulled the CB up till the aft end (but foreward edge)was about a foot below the bottom of the boat and marked the line agin with a single mark.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> With the rudder all the way up it is 21" to the first mark which would drop the CB ~1-2'. The second mark is 22" from the first mark and drops the CB somewhere around halfway. The third mark is 35" from the second mark and places the CB 1' above fully down. I do not usually bring the CB above the first mark or below the third mark. Sorry I didn't take pictures while I did the marking. It is a great idea and would have been very easy to do while the boat was on the lift.

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 17:38:08

If I do some rounding here....sounds like you get a foot of draft for two feet of line.....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/03/2003 17:39:30

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