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proposed modifications for the off season

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lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/10/2003 : 11:26:34

Hey guys, have some ideas about some modifications in the long, long, long Buffalo off season, would enjoy some feedback on them.

1) Cabin top winch for main halyard from cockpit.

2) Running all control lines to cockpit.

3) Semi-permanantly fixing pop top(which I have yet to pop), put a traveler on cabin top, go to mid-boom sheeting.

4) Electric Bilge pump. (To augment the manual one)

5) (Possibly) With a fixed pop top, run an extra 1 to 1&1/2 ft. of main, improving the aspect ratio for the main. This would neccesitate purchasing a new main, and I am cheap. oh yeah, it is a standard rig.

Thanks for any input.

One more question: has anyone rigged a main downhaul that actually worked? The ones I have seen on other boats just foul up with the friction of the slugs, and you end up tugging a bit on the main like I do.

Thanks.

Lance 85 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 12:54:40

Lance,

I have implimented the following upgrades that you listed on my 1979 C25 standard rig swing keel:

1.) Cabin top winch for (headsail, not main) halyard(s) from cockpit.
2.) Running all (11 so far) control lines to cockpit.
4.) (2) Electric Bilge pump(s). (To augment the manual one)
6.) Rigged a main downhaul (a.k.a. Cunnimgham) that actually worked.

I'm very pleased with all of these mods. (Although I haven't actually needed to use the bilge pumps yet!

) If you have more detailed questions, I'll be glad to try and help you.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 13:05:41

Lance

You really don't need a winch for the mainsail. It would be more efficient to install a cunningham, and lots less costly.

If you have roller furling you don't need a winch for the jib, but if you don't that's where the winch should go. Also recommend a jib downhaul (if you don't have roller furling). To drop the jib on deck ready to fold: sail on port tack, heave to (backwind jib with wind coming over starboard side), drop jib by releasing jib halyard and pulling on jib downhaul. That way the hanks flake to the proper side and all you have to do is roll up the jib and bag it.

Seems to be a bit of confusion about the differnce between a cunningham and a main downhaul. The cunningham is just for tensioning the luff of the main. A "complete" main downhaul would seem to me to be one where you can haul the whole main down, so the line would have to go up with the headboard. I never found a need for this, because the sail would come down simply by pulling on the leech and dropping it over the boom.

Stu

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 13:16:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Leon Sisson
 
2.) Running all (11 so far) control lines to cockpit.
-- Leon Sisson

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK Leon name 'um
1. Main Halyard
2. Jib Halyard
3. Spinnaker Halyard
4. Topping lift for boom
5. Topping lift for spinnaker pole
6. Downhaul for spinnaker pole
7. Boom downhaul
8. Cunningham
9. Single Line reef
10. Main outhaul
11. Boom vang
12. Second reef
13. Spinnaker pole mast eye car uplift
14. Spinnaker pole mast eye car downhaul
15. Pennant/Burgee halyard
16. Headsail downhaul
17. Mainsail downhaul
18. Lazyjacks pull back
19. Emergency bow anchor drop
20. Second headsail halyard
Which ones did I miss?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 13:19:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34 No. 224 1986
 Seems to be a bit of confusion about the differnce between a cunningham and a main downhaul. The cunningham is just for tensioning the luff of the main. A "complete" main downhaul would seem to me to be one where you can haul the whole main down, so the line would have to go up with the headboard. I never found a need for this, because the sail would come down simply by pulling on the leech and dropping it over the boom.

Stu
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Most of us do not have a fixed gooseneck so we need to set the boom height. I think a lot of people hoist the main with out the boom set and then downhaul the boom for luff tension. That adds the other downhaul. I just want a fixed boom, maybe next year.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 14:38:37

The hole on the bottom of the gooseneck is for the downhaul, which is used to tension the main sail luff(as does the cunningham).

A downhaul to bring down a sail is sometimes referred to as a dousing line.

Question: If, in the heat of a race or in really bad weather, the skipper barks the order to, "heave on the main downhaul!" do you...

A) Bring down(douse) the mainsail,

or

B) Tension the luff...?

Hmmmmm?

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 14:46:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lancej
 1) Cabin top winch for main halyard from cockpit.
2) Running all control lines to cockpit.
3) Semi-permanantly fixing pop top(which I have yet to pop)
4) Electric Bilge pump. (To augment the manual one)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
#1 and #2 - I have two Lewmar 7 winches on the cabin top. Except for the cost of the winches and new running rigging, these modifications are easy, inexpensive and deliver huge benefits. Highly recommended.
#3 - I can't address this other than to say that I've learned to live with the low headroom, because I find popping the top to be too inconvenient for too little gain.
#4 - Again, a quick and inexpensive mod that provides great piece of mind. I teed the drain line from the electric pump into the original drain line between the manual pump and the through-hole in order to avoid installing a second through-hull.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">5) (Possibly) With a fixed pop top, run an extra 1 to 1&1/2 ft. of main, improving the aspect ratio for the main. This would neccesitate purchasing a new main, and I am cheap. oh yeah, it is a standard rig.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm not sure I understand the relationship between the pop-top, cabin-top traveller and a higher aspect ratio main. However, I think a larger main can, and has been, designed for the boat. Besides cost, things to consider are relative gain (there was a long thread about this a couple months ago), weatherhelm increase, and spar/standing rig stresses (especially, if you also move the traveller).
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">6) One more question: has anyone rigged a main downhaul that actually worked? The ones I have seen on other boats just foul up with the friction of the slugs, and you end up tugging a bit on the main like I do.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Based on your comment about slugs, I'm guessing that you meant main dousing line. (I think that I was actually the person that introduced the term confusion on this one.) If so, yes, I have. The key is to attach the dousing line to the lower half of the topmost sail slug's bail. Attaching the dousing line to the main halyard or head shackle causes the fouling you've noted. If you meant main downhaul, then others have already addressed the issue.

Best of luck,

Edited by - on

roberoo
Navigator

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USA
182 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 14:51:31

Okay here is my stupid question. How do I rig a DownHaul on the Jib? Is there a kit or can I piece it together?

It seems my wife and I had the most trouble dropping the Jib to the deck without getting all tangled up in it. One thing I was going to do was put netting on My Bow Lifelines to about a third of the way aft, so the netting could catch the Jib.

Also I have a winch on a wooden base mounted about 2 feet from the cabin top. I have not seen a need to use it as my sails all seem to go up easy as long as the "Capt" can keep her in Irons long enough to put the Main up. Would It be better used if I moved it to the Cabin Top or just leave it where it is?

I don't mean to take away from the discussion just caught my eye y'all were talking about a down haul for the jib.

TIA

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 15:10:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roberoo
 How do I rig a DownHaul on the Jib? Is there a kit or can I piece it together?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
We'll call it a jib dousing line to avoid confusion.

Anyway, it is simple and cheap to rig: 1/4" line bowlined to the jib halyard shackle, runs through a turning block attached to the stem fitting, then through turning blocks or fairleads to a cleat near the cockpit or on the cabin top.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">One thing I was going to do was put netting on My Bow Lifelines to about a third of the way aft, so the netting could catch the Jib.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not necessary. Just backwind the jib and drop. This will flake the jib right on the deck.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also I have a winch on a wooden base mounted about 2 feet from the cabin top. I have not seen a need to use it as my sails all seem to go up easy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Mounted about 2 feet from the cabin top? Where, precisely? Cabin-top halyard winches are useful for really tensioning the luff of the sails for both increasing the boat's ability to point and for tensioning the rig for big wind [without having to leave the cockpit

].

Hope that helps!

Edited by - Sea Trac on 11/10/2003 15:33:01

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 15:21:51

JB, he means the winch that was mounted on the mast 2ft up from the deck

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 15:31:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 JB, he means the winch that was mounted on the mast 2ft up from the deck
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you tell who doesn't have one of those? Thanks, Frank.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 16:00:05

I have netting on my boat, it does help in keeping the jib on the deck a little. Mostly it provides a more secure feeling for my wife when the kids are on the boat.
I started a few projects. I took apart and lubed my winches, never did that before supprized at how easy it was. Added a new cleat to the mast for my flag halyard.
Next, I need to fix the pump for the head, find that dead mouse, replace the sink pumps, insulate the ice box, you know the same things I keep putting off every year.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 16:12:47

fhopper,

Re: "OK Leon name 'um"

1.) Main Halyard.
2.) Jib Halyard.
3.) Spinnaker Halyard.
4.) Topping lift for boom (3:1).
5.) Topping lift for spinnaker pole.
7.) Boom downhaul (4:1).
9.) Single Line (first) reef.
10.) Main outhaul (hanging under boom about 4' from gooseneck).
11.) Boom vang
12.) Second (single line) reef.
16.) Headsail dowsing line.

Which ones did I miss?

15.) (2) Pennant/Burgee (spreader flag) halyards not lead aft.
19.) No "Emergency bow anchor drop", but a stern anchor.

And of course that doesn't count the half dozen that were already in the cockpit (sheets, backstay, traveler).

The worst case of cockpit spagetti I've seen in small boats was the Lighting class, which has around two dozen control lines in racing configuration.

I sailed an old wooden one for years, but without the class spinnaker, and only a dozen or so lines.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 20:23:19

Hey guys thanks for all the help!

I did mead a Main Dousing line, I have a downhaul now, though it is not yet led aft. Thanks for the help on this.

I know a little larger main would increase weather helm, but no more than a tall rig, right??

Yeah the pop top is a pain, and not worth the trouble. And I am 5'6" tall, one of the few times this is a good thing, I can almost stand witht he top down.

My twisted thinking being: With no pop top, no need for boom clearance issuse, hence the extra main luff.

The Idea I am most excited about, and noone has commented on is the cabin top traveler, with mid boom sheeting. Seems a logical place to me, much better than aft of the companionway, a la O'Day 23 & 25. The stock arangement has robbed me of my sailing cap one to many times, and the stock traveler is more of a short commuter.

Thanks again!! Already getting excited for the spring. (That's read as May in Buffalo!)

Lance

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 20:56:28

Just a suggestion: On a jib dousing line (downhaul) it sometimes helps to splice in or clip in a stainless ring about half way down the jib luff and run your dousing line through this. Helps keep things from flopping around. Also years ago Dave Gerr the designer used to run the dousing line through this type of mid-jib ring, doubled, and continued the line back to and through the jib clew cringle, thence back to the second ring and then to the deck, turning block, etc. Consequence: pull on the dousing line and it became first a "tricing" line, pulling the clew forward and bunching the jib at the headsaty, dumping all the air out. Just a thought, ron srsk Orion SWFL

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 21:52:13

On our previous boat, I rigged a jib dousing line from the topmost hank (not the halyard) and threaded it through a couple of hanks below that to keep it from flopping around. A few cotter rings would work, too. Like the main dousing line, if you rig it to the head of the sail (at the halyard shackle), it pulls the head to the side, binding the top hank (or the top slug on the main). The line can be as thin as you can find, since it has virtually no load on it at any time. On our C-25, the main douser is a quarter-incher, made to the top slug with a tiny shackle. It works perfectly.

I'd recommend top priority to the lines led aft--we can't get over the improvement, particularly for the main halyard and dousing line. (We have roller furling.) The traveler/fixed pop-top could be good if you (1) plan to keep the boat for a while, and (2) don't plan to race one-design. For resale, the pop-top might be a better feature than the traveler.

Happy tinkering!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/10/2003 21:55:57

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2003 : 23:19:15

I don't think you need a winch for the main halyard. I run a line from a cleat on the mast just above the gooseneck through the Cunningham cringle back down to a turning block at the mast base and back to the idle (ie. lee) genoa winch on the cockpit coaming. It gives great control of the luff. I also run my main reefing lines back to the cockpit. And I have long had a main dousing halyard, also led back to the cockpit. It is attached via a bowline to a one inch sized loop made of electrical wire run through the second sail slug from the top of the luff. It allows me to drop the main to any reefing position, or entirely into the lazy jacks in less than five seconds.

I agree with you on the pop top. I too am 5'6". For me the major problem with the pop top is the false sense of security it provokes. How many times have I banged my head on that sharp edge of the cabin top just astern of the head? More times that I wish to remember.

Other improvements that are worth the investment of time and money (at least they have been for me):

Topping lift led aft to the cockpit;
Cunningham and boom vang led aft to cockpit;
Purchase and installation of a gimballed Origo 3000 stove;
Handheld VHF radio (the cabin one is useless if you s/h;

I would avoid adding a larger main to the standard rig. Lowering the boom will make the cockpit unliveable, and it will make the boat unbalanced and probably ugly. The C25 derives most of its power from the headsail anyway. I would guess that this past season I had the main on my SR C25 reefed at least half the time. I sailed 400 miles and used the full main for less than 200 of those miles! If you want to add sail, add it to the headsail--buy a 150% genny, or buy an asymmetric spinaker for those light wind days (not many around here, obviously).

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