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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/20/2003 : 13:38:29

I just received my FIRST EVER NEW SAIL!

My 5.5 OZ 135% Ulman roller genoa arrived yesterday evening. I have it in the car now. I am going to rig it and hoist it today at lunch time. I have not seen the whole thing (it's too big to unroll in the house) but it looks beautiful - great workmanship. Perhaps I'll get a photo to post this weekend.

Gary (Ulman Ventura) gave me a great deal - $596 using my old Schafer furling wire.

By the way, what range of windspeeds is this sail good for?

Any tips on taking care of a new sail?

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 13:29:09

I guess I have to answer my own post! The sail is good for 18 to 20 knots (says Gary Swenson) and a little more if reaching or running.

What is the max wind speed for the stock 110??

Story:

Equipment: Older Schafer furling with a wire sewn into the sail. This is hoisted aloft alongside a standard forestay. At the top of the forestay is a sealed bearing that spins when you roll up. At the bottom is an open drum. A very simple system that always worked perfectly before I messed with it!

I thought I could just go to the boat at lunchtime, hook up the drum, hoist the new roller sail, and un roll it to check everything out. Wrong!

Let's see if I can remember all the errors I made:

(1) drum is not to be empty when the sail is unrolled. Drum is suppossed to be full of line so that you can roll it back up.

(2) drum is suppossed to wind the sail back on with the UV fabric on the OUTSIDE (line wound in the wrong direction). It's also very hard to hold onto the tack of a 135% genoa with 2 fingers while winding line on the drum in a moderate breeze.

(3) sail is not suppossed to get dropped in the water. The wire sewn in had some twists and I had to drop it to the deck.

(4) It works better when the gear that you hoist to the top of the mast is not upside down

(5) If the genoa halyard is wrapped several times around the forestay it really won't work well when you try to roll the sail

(6) Genoa sheets are not suppossed to be led aft when wrapped around forward lowers and/or lifelines.

Finally I got all line run correctly and then commenced a great deal of trouble. It seemed no matter what I could not get the sail to roll back up without getting fouled or wrapped around the forestay. After sorting out (5) and (6) plus slacking the halyard slightly I finally got a good roll.

It was a 3+ hour lunch. Good thing nobody missed me.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 13:47:45

Hmmm...at the risk of sounding arrogant, I told you that you might not want to go back to the furler.

Hey, at least you were on the water for 3+ hours.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 14:08:34

On the DOCK for 3+ hours on a beautiful Thursday afternoon.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 14:46:34

Sound like me, I have to do it wrong the first time in order to get it right the tenth time.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

pierrem
1st Mate

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64 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 15:37:07

Geez and I was thinking about tackling the installation of a new cdi ff4 furler with a new 150....with little experience and more anxiety. Oh well ..how else do you gain real experience and wisdom.
wish we could still be sailing here in Wisconsin ...although yesterday was 65 (new record)
Pierre

Pierre

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 17:41:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Equipment: Older Schafer furling with a wire sewn into the sail. This is hoisted aloft alongside a standard forestay.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you saying the luff tape of the sail does not get inserted into a grooved foil of a furler?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 22:03:23

Jim: I'm not familiar with the Schafer furler in particular, but "halyard wrapping" is a potential problem with many furlers. Often, the solution is a small cheek block on the front of the mast, set just above the point where the upper swivel stops when you hoist the sail. The halyard runs down through and under the block, and then out on an angle to the swivel that it's hoisting. That angle, with sufficient tension, should keep the top of the swivel from turning, preventing the halyard from wrapping around the stay.

Do you have such a block? Are you running the halyard down through it? It's proper placement is affected by the position the swivel ends up at when the sail is hoisted, which in turn can be affected by the sail's luff length, any bridles at the head or the tack, and whatever attaches the drum to the stem fitting. Your furler's instructions (or a rigger) can help determine whether the lead angle of your halyard is correct for the furler, and what to do about it.

Edited by - on

LeighMarie
Navigator

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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 22:48:43

Dave B. referred to the "cheek block" and on my Schaeffer Snap-Furl system I put on 2 years ago it is called something else, but the concept is the same. Unfortunately, I thought the directions said it was optional and so I didn't install it on the mast. I put the sail on, hoisted it and attempted to roll it up. It was so hard to roll, and it seemed to want to unroll whenever I released tension on the line. I finally put the furler line on the winch and cranked for all I was worth. Needless to say, what I was doing was not good. I completely decimated the forestay because the halyard wrapped around it. Not good! The loft where I bought the sail said they had never seen that happen to a forestay.

But, I learned, and put the preventer "cheek block" thingie on with the new forestay. It has worked spectaculary since then!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 00:43:08

The luff of the genoa has a heavy duty wire sewn in. The boat has a normal wire forestay. The wire in the sail is just as heavy as the forestay. There is no grooved foil. The furler is just a drum at the bottom and a sealed bearing with a thing that looks like a giant paperclip. You attach the wire sewn into the sail at the tack to the drum and attach the head to the bearing and then hoist the paperclip up the forestay with the genoa halyard.

I got out of the office early enough to go sailing this afternoon. Everything works great as long as the genoa halyard is not too overly tight. The boat doesn't point as well with this new sail (comapred to my hank on 110), but it is SO much easier to handle single handed it's worth it.

Also, it wasn't a good test of pointing because it was very light air, changing directions rapidly, and I was trying to beat against at least a 2 knot current flowing in to Mission Bay.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 10:07:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 The luff of the genoa has a heavy duty wire sewn in. The boat has a normal wire forestay. The wire in the sail is just as heavy as the forestay. There is no grooved foil. The furler is just a drum at the bottom and a sealed bearing with a thing that looks like a giant paperclip. You attach the wire sewn into the sail at the tack to the drum and attach the head to the bearing and then hoist the paperclip up the forestay with the genoa halyard.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You definately have a furler and not a reefer. You might want to start budgeting for a nicer rig at some point. I think after the process you have been through you would justify a Harken system. Also, with all the racing equipment you have described on your boat that old rig is what is letting gnorgan stay with you.

I am having my dealer fabricate a backstay like yours! I would like to see more detailed pictures of your deck to see what other tricks your boat has.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 11:07:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 The luff of the genoa has a heavy duty wire sewn in. The boat has a normal wire forestay. The wire in the sail is just as heavy as the forestay. There is no grooved foil. The furler is just a drum at the bottom and a sealed bearing with a thing that looks like a giant paperclip. You attach the wire sewn into the sail at the tack to the drum and attach the head to the bearing and then hoist the paperclip up the forestay with the genoa halyard.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have seen this kind of furler on Hobie 16's and West Wight Potter 19's, but never on a boat as large as a Catalina 25. Perhaps some of the problems Jim had are because the Catalina 25 135% genoa is perhaps just too large for this kind of non-foil furler?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 13:41:22

When I'm racing Gary I'll hoist my hank on 155 or 135 laminate

. Meanwhile, the new sail is working OK with the old furler. Since the sail is good up to 20 knots I'll won't need to roll it to reef. We seldom see winds > 20 knots here in San Diego!

Should make a much better test tomorrow. Today is too windy and wavey. I am going to work at home

I've got a lot to learn about racing. Gary has mucho experience (over 100 races). I'll entertain myself some evening and take a lot of photos. Perhaps someone can then help me by suggesting how (and when) to USE all that stuff!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 17:59:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The luff of the genoa has a heavy duty wire sewn in. The boat has a normal wire forestay. The wire in the sail is just as heavy as the forestay. There is no grooved foil. The furler is just a drum at the bottom and a sealed bearing with a thing that looks like a giant paperclip. You attach the wire sewn into the sail at the tack to the drum and attach the head to the bearing and then hoist the paperclip up the forestay with the genoa halyard.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Does this mean your headsail is only attached to the forestay at two points, the tack and head?

If this is so, how does the furler work?...On my furler the entire sail luff/foil turns as one from top to bottom, but on your furler I'm envisioning that when you pull on the drum line to furl the sail, the bottom of the sail would start twisting around the forestay and then eventually the sail twists all the way to the top of the forestay since the top and bottom of the furler aren't moving in unison as does a foiled furler. Is this correct?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2003 : 00:00:49

The sail is not attached to the forestay at all. In effect, the boat has 2 forestays - the standard one, and the one sewn in the sail. When you pull on the furler line the drum turns and the sail rolls up around the wire that's sewn in.

Until I got everything tensioned correctly the sail would catch on the forestay and was getting twisted around that.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2003 : 09:35:19

This type of furler system was extremely popular for many years, for sure during the seventies and eighties, and many are still seen today on older cruising boats. I have owned several boats with this rig, and recently put the rig on a MAINSAIL for an elderly friend so he could pull two strings, one on main, one on jib, and make all sail go away. They were not restricted to small boats, and came in sizes like 200,400,600,800,1000,1200 for the square footages indicated. Yes, they are freestanding, so the only support for the luff of the sail is the sewn-in wire, and the tension on the halyard sets the line of the luff as to straightness. ADVANTAGES: simple, robust, can easily be struck to deck for repair or sail change by owner, leaves headstay for extra support to mast, leaves headstay for hank-on sails whenever the wireluff sail is removed DISADVANTAGES: Is not for reefing, just furling (although evrybody reefed them on occasion), Has a great deal of headstay sag, so will not point as high as either hank or extrusion luffs, can wrap on the headstay until operator becomes familiar with the unit, It was the predecessor to modern reefing roller systems. I suggest experimenting with rolling up on different points of sail to find which gives the best rollup. Keep some sheet tension on when rolling, just as with a newer rig. If you try to roll in a strong breeze from aft, you are almost certain to get the headstay bound up in the roll. Tension the jib halyard strongly when going sailing, and release the tension at the dock. Inspect your gear aloft and alow as there is a good deal of strain on just a couple of points when sailing, particularly in strong winds. Above all, ENJOY the ease with which you can roll up, thousands of sailors used this gear for many years, it goes all the way back to the English Wyckam-Marton roller rigs of the twenties. Fair winds, ron srsk Orion #2343

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2003 : 11:18:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Has a great deal of headstay sag, so will not point as high as either hank or extrusion luffs<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My neighbor ('78 FK/SR) has one of those furlers. While he has been able to reduce the sag pretty well, he cannot point quite as high as me (old CDI furler). He always explained that this was due to the fact that the wire through the sail luff, i.e. the "second headstay", was about 2-3" aft of the headstay, thus his sail luff is behind mine. Seemed to make sense to me, but...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is not for reefing, just furling (although everybody reefed them on occasion)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He reefs his quite often.

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