Association Forum - Differences between Capri 25 and Cat 25

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Differences between Capri 25 and Cat 25

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

FrankV
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
135 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/21/2003 : 12:16:06

There is a Capri 25 for sale in our marina. it looks like a pretty fun boat for inland lake sailing. How do they compare in handling and maintenance issues to the Catalina 25? Anybody ever sail one?
I like our Catalina 25, but the Capri looks faster...

Frank Vaughan
250 WK/SR

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 12:36:05

Theoretical hull speeds are the same, but the Capri is much more tender and has a capsize ratio of nearly 3, versus the Catalina's capsize ratio of just under 2. They do look nice though.

Edited by - on

Steve Kostanich
1st Mate

Members Avatar

88 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 12:43:19

I think the Capri 25 is quite a bit lighter than a Cat-25 and as such should be considereably faster is lighter air, and with a "hot" crew should be an absolute screamer in higher winds compared to a Cat 25, even though their theoretical speeds are the same.
Maint. wise they should be like another keel boat.

Steve Kostanich C-25 1119 Equinox sr/sk

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 15:17:15

The Capri 25 was designed as a go-fast boat that was intended to be comparable to, or faster than, the J-24. It isn't faster than the J-24, but it's a fast, fun boat to sail and race. I have crewed on Capri 25s, and they didn't seem to be extraordinarily tender, but sail selection has a lot to do with that.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 16:17:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Kostanich
 I think the Capri 25 is quite a bit lighter than a Cat-25 and as such should be considereably faster is lighter air, and with a "hot" crew should be an absolute screamer in higher winds compared to a Cat 25, even though their theoretical speeds are the same.
Maint. wise they should be like another keel boat.

Steve Kostanich C-25 1119 Equinox sr/sk
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You're right about the Capri being lighter; ~50% of the C25s displacement. With relatively the same LWL and sail area, intuition would suggest that the Capri should be faster, and I agree with you regarding light air. However, boats aren't supposed to be able to exceed their theoretical hull speeds, because of the amount of force that would be required to overcome the bow wavelength (or some such physical constraint). Although, members of this forum have been questioning whether or not they may have exceeded the C25s theoretical hull speed on occassion. If memory serves, they were generally running with a following current. Personally, I'm confused regarding the relationships between hull speed, LWL, drag, etc. Many times the concepts seem contradictory.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 19:50:40

The Capri will easily exceed it's hull speed. It's called planing, something you hope you never do in a Catalina 25. If you are in enough wind to plane a at 25 then you are in deep do do. The Capri 25 has a fatal design flaw. It has too much beam. Butler was very embarassed by this boat. They are tender and if raced against their intended class of J-24, Merit 25, Melges etc. then they are outright dangerous. The problem is because of the wide beam and low freeboard they do not right from a BAD knockdown, the keel goes so high in the air that the boat will not self right and they SINK. They are also so lightly built that they have not held up well as compared to the other boats of the ilk. If you live in light air heaven and someone very anal about maintenance has owned that boat then it will be a joy. When well maintained they are BEAUTIFUL boats. Another thing in their favor is the deck. With a huge cockpit and the deck area the boat entertains like a larger boat. Our 25s loose so much deck space due to the cabin size that you run out of places to put people and we all know how hard it is to get forward and back, on the Capri you can walk from the front to the back with ease.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/21/2003 19:51:44

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 21:35:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
 ...However, boats aren't supposed to be able to exceed their theoretical hull speeds, because of the amount of force that would be required to overcome the bow wavelength (or some such physical constraint). Although, members of this forum have been questioning whether or not they may have exceeded the C25s theoretical hull speed on occassion. If memory serves, they were generally running with a following current. Personally, I'm confused regarding the relationships between hull speed, LWL, drag, etc. Many times the concepts seem contradictory.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The calculation of hull speed is an issue of some debate, but the general agreement is that a boat must outrun the wave that has a wavelength equal to the waterline length, to exceed hull speed. As Frank H. says, it means you're planing--the boat climbs up over the bow wave and leaves it behind. A C-25 can do that--particularly on a broad reach, sailing down the faces of swells. To windward, it's highly unlikely, but a good following current can make your GPS (speed over the bottom) read above the theoretical limit through the water.

Obviously, power boats do it with ease--that's why they leave a wake of multiple waves--as they climb over (or push through) each one, they create another, all moving forward more slowly than the boat. A sailboat moving just under hull speed will generally trail two waves--one off the bow and the at stern. A catamaran will exceed hull speed by cutting through its bow wave (instead of going over it), creating spray and a great "ripping" noise in the process. A "planing hull" sailboat has a hull form and displacement that allows the water to lift the boat as its speed increases, so the sails can easily get the boat on plane--exceeding hull speed.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/21/2003 21:40:15

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 22:39:22

Excellent explanation, Dave! Thanks for the visualization you provided, it will help me better remember the specifics next time.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2003 : 23:34:10

Of course, there's more to a 'racing' boat than hull speed.

Rate of turn, tacking angles, and rate of acceleration are big players in what makes a boat "perform". Now throw in different optimum wind speeds for each hull design, effects of different sails, reaction of the hull to different wave conditions etc. and the 'fastest boat' equation becomes very complex... possibly defying solution.

For a simple device with basically 3 moving parts, a sailboat gets darn complicated.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 08:42:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 ...and the 'fastest boat' equation becomes very complex... possibly defying solution.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...as demonstrated every few years in the Americas Cup! At Freemantle, they had to build boats that could crash major waves--at Auckland, obviously the boats weren't designed for that.

Tactics and trimming are probably bigger factors in most races than the fine points of the equipment. Theoretical hull speed effectively is factored out in the handicaps. Then there's the issue of how much driving force it takes to get to hull speed (or any speed), which is affected by the condition of the bottom (a factor not considered in the handicaps).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/22/2003 08:44:19

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 09:55:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 [ A C-25 can do that--particularly on a broad reach, sailing down the faces of swells.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That is actually "surfing" and is not sustainable. In the racing rules it is addressed as the only time a sail may be pumped, (kenetics) to catch a wave and surf. Even then you can only pump once. It feels very cool to do. When you have your purchase lines in your hand and haul on them to catch the wave you feel very "powerful". You can't do it by hauling in with the mainsheet because of the purchase, you will be too slow. After the wave rolls on through then you need to watch for the next one.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/22/2003 09:56:07

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 12:27:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><h6>Originally posted by Frank Hopper</h6>That is actually "surfing" and is not sustainable.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Most sailboats can plane under the right conditions, but few can sustain it for very long. C-25s don't plane easily, but they do plane.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 12:35:14

Sorry Frank.

I didn't mean to "shout" your name.

I'm just learning how to insert the "Originally posted by" code. How do you guys do it?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 13:20:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Sorry Frank.

I didn't mean to "shout" your name.

I'm just learning how to insert the "Originally posted by" code. How do you guys do it?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The forum does it, there is a bracketed quote followed by a bracketed i (for italics) followed by a bracketed break.
Are you using the quick reply? Maybe it doesn't do the auto quote.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2003 : 10:56:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I'm just learning how to insert the "Originally posted by" code. How do you guys do it?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Steve: Use the "Reply with Quote" icon for the specific post you want to reply to. The forum sets up the quote--you just type below it. I often delete parts of the quote that don't apply to my response (as above), but I have to be careful not to mess up the HTML codes in the process.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2003 : 11:37:44

...or you can click on the "Insert Quote" button (second to last one on right and looks like a sheet of paper with a red arrow), copy the quote you want, then paste it between the {quote} and the {/quote}.

Edited by - on

SEA DOG
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2003 : 10:23:03

A catalina 25 fk tm is quite easy to plane and maintain on plane, as it tracks very nicely.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2003 : 12:33:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SEA DOG
 A catalina 25 fk tm is quite easy to plane and maintain on plane, as it tracks very nicely.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Since I am new to the Catalina 25 but not new to planing hulls, (I have skippered and planed in: Merit 25, J-24, S2 7.9, Holder 20, and Tanzer 16), I need some creds on that statement. While the mid section of the hull is relatively flat it is neither broad nor carried very far aft, it turns up forward of the skeg, removing the planing surface from the water. The skeg itself is a hinderence to planing. Here you see our stern and the stern of a planing daysailor in the background. The daysailor is the same hull shape used in all of the boats I mentioned and in the Catalina 22. Note it is flat and broad all the way to the transom. Our boat turns up around the companionway, to plane we would need to balance on the hull under the cabin with the forward sections and the aft sections out of the water. I do not see that happening.

The keel section of the 25 is an early fin design with a huge chord and a lot of wetted surface, plus having a bad foil tip shape, (broad and flat, generating a lot of turbulance). While a typical sailor, (always ready to state our beliefs in a way that makes them sound like facts

) I am also an eager learner. Convince me with specifics that the Catalina 25 can plane in anything short of rig and life threatening conditions. This site is at its best when real education occurs on these threads, help me understand where I am wrong on this.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2003 : 13:46:51

I have to disagree with Sea Dog's claim that the C-25 planes or maintains a plane easily, but a lot of boats will plane that are not ideally designed to plane. If you are on a brisk reach, and are helped along by a following sea, the C-25 will plane at times. You point to differences between the width of the beam, the shape of the keel and the tumble home of the C-25 and the J-24, and imply that, if the boat design is less perfectly designed in all those respects for planing than a J24 or a Merit 25, then it cannot plane under even ideal conditions, and that just isn't so. You say that "...the mid section of the hull is [not] broad. In fact, the beam of the Merit 25 is identical to the beam of the C-25. The beam of the J 24 is about 10 inches wider than that of the C-25. You contend that "...to plane we would need to balance on the hull under the cabin with the forward sections and the aft sections out of the water. I do not see that happening." Some of the most important things that racing sailors do is to trim sails so that the boat remains upright and to shift movable ballast fore and aft, so that the boat is properly trimmed fore-and-aft to sail on its fastest lines.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2003 : 21:01:24

Frank H: I agree that the C-25 is not a planing hull, and therefore will not plane easily and, in most conditions, won't sustain a plane. However, in my experience, the term "plane" includes more than what you imply. A sailboat is considered by many to be planing if it reaches enough speed to lift the bow enough to break through the bow wave and exceed hull speed--generally signalled by horizontal spray coming off forward quarter of the hull. (I don't mean the vertical spray from pounding waves.) Power boaters call it "semi-displacement." This is primarily due to lift from the midsection. If there is sufficient lift toward the stern, then the boat can achieve what might be called a "flat plane" where the entire hull is lifted, spray is from about amidships, and even greater speed is achieved.

The C-25 can plane on the front side of a big wave on a broad reach, but not flat. If it did, it'd probably overpower the rudder and broach. The FLying Scott (?) in your pic can easily reach a flat plane, as can a Sunfish, Laser, and others. The J-24 can plane, but I haven't seen one do what I'd call a flat plane. The broad stern on the Scott slows it somewhat in light air, because it draws more of a stern wake. The C-25 stern sections are designed to reduce the stern wake and the drag it creates. That benefits us more in normal conditions than a planing shape like the Scott's would.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2003 : 22:06:46

Hi Steve,
You will recall that I made several comments during September and October about how pleased I am with how my boat sails. It surprised me and no doubt will continue to surprise me. One thing that has not been mentioned is the need for a chute to plane. Would you say that a Catalina 25 needs a chute or it can be done with main and head sail?

You point to differences between the width of the beam, the shape of the keel and the tumble home of the C-25 and the J-24, and imply that, if the boat design is less perfectly designed in all those respects for planing than a J24 or a Merit 25, then it cannot plane under even ideal conditions, and that just isn't so.

Well you certainly are correct there.

You say that "...the mid section of the hull is [not] broad. In fact, the beam of the Merit 25 is identical to the beam of the C-25. The beam of the J 24 is about 10 inches wider than that of the C-25.

It is the curse of an ignorant man to speak poorly, (I envy your knowledge of Latin), by hull beam I intended that part of the hull below the water line. The Merit carries it’s beam down the hull sides to a rather hard but round chine where it turns under sharply. The Catalina carries its beam most of the way down the hull sides and then with a more gentle turn narrows to a deeper keel. Here is a picture of the Merit where the beam at the water line is evident and then the hard turn shows it is not a “displacement hull” but a “planning hull”.

That is of course a J-24 and a Capri 25 .

Your comment about the tumble home, (thank you for reminding me of the term) seems dead on. The Merit and the J have more tumble home than I remembered. But their water lines are at their transoms, rather than below them as on the Catalina 25.

Here is a fun picture; the Catalina is reversed, (note the motor on the port) It is showing the difference in freeboard and waterline at the transom. Note the identical S2s flanking the Merit and Catalina.

One more picture lest my interest in all of this be misunderstood. I love boats and I loved to race but this picture shows a typical race at NSA. The 7.9 is in front, then comes a gaggle of J-24s, and then me in the rear. I am no hot shot but I do love this stuff.

later

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2003 : 22:23:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 The FLying Scott (?) in your pic can easily reach a flat plane, as can a Sunfish, Laser, and others. The J-24 can plane, but I haven't seen one do what I'd call a flat plane. The broad stern on the Scott slows it somewhat in light air, because it draws more of a stern wake. The C-25 stern sections are designed to reduce the stern wake and the drag it creates. That benefits us more in normal conditions than a planing shape like the Scott's would.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Dave
I think it is a Capri 14.5. (Aren't Scotts cool? We are Sweet 16 country around here.)
You are right about the benefits of our stern in normal sailing. It is a blessing to have that considering my weight. I have even wondered if the urge to send everyone forward on our boats is really needed. The picture I posted is with four sail bags in the locker and my waterline is considerably higher than the old waterline mark left by the PO. It seems our boat can carry a lot of weight and stay on her lines.
I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving with a lot of friends.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2003 : 22:25:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The FLying Scott (?) in your pic <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That looks like a Catalina 14.2.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2003 : 09:14:04

Yer right--not big enough for a Scott.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.