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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Rudder maintenance.

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/28/2003 : 20:54:33

While enjoying a windy day here in Jacksonville I heard a crack form the rudder!

I looked at everything and found the tiller split around the bolts that attach it to the rudder. After the sail I took the tiller off to fix it and noticed some more wear. Both of the pintles were very loose! The bolts have enlarged the holes in the rudder. I brought the whole thing home to fix. I drilled the holes on the rudder oversize and filled them. I am also going to beef up the area around the lower pintle as the gel coat was worn almost all the way through. I thought all the SLOP in the rudder was from a worn gudgeon! My rudder is of the foam core construction and was not waterlogged at all. I am going to try to fix the tiller by sanding the end down a bit and putting a fiberglass cap over the aft end. I found the bronze bushings for the gudgeons at tru-value and am doing it all at once. I will post any other surprises that I find. This might be a good thing to look at this winter for the seasonal sailors.

PO of 1988 Wing HN 5775
"Cote d'Azure"
Fleet 25

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2003 : 21:14:34

Hmmmm... Cracked tiller at the rudder head... In my oft-debated opinion, that calls for a new tiller, for about a half a boat unit. Some combination of delamination and rot has likely weakened it. Remember that the leverage from the length of the tiller puts a lot of torque on the end at the rudder. This is an important enough component to be worth doing right--get a new one. West, BoatUS, and Catalina Direct have them--the C-25 model is also used for several other boats. A side benefit--it'll be real purdy!

The gelcoat wear suggests a loose gudgeon. You should rebed it and tighten it down (after the bedding sets up). Some folks here have replaced the bronze backing with a bigger plate, and then used bolts and nuts (instead of just the threads in the bronze plate). Not a bad idea.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/28/2003 21:18:27

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2003 : 11:49:32

I would search the prior posts on this topic . . . a lot has been written.

I wonder if my tiller cover (made from Sunbrella) has anything to do with my tiller showing no signs of delaminating?

Edited by - OJ on 12/02/2003 15:00:23

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2003 : 17:20:39

I'm with Dave, what do you have in your hand more than your tiller? Buy a new one and buy the nicest one you can, it will make you smile every time you use it. Having a few very nice little things helps make up for the compromises one must make on so many things.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2003 : 22:47:36

Somebody agreed with me!

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2003 : 22:21:10

Ok enough already. I test fitted the fiberglassed repaired tiller and I am ready to cough up the cash for a new one. I cannot let that make my 1988 wing look bad. Besides the fact that the repaired tiller does not quite fit. Where did you get one and how much did it cost? The rudder is better than new now BTW. Thanks

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2003 : 22:48:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Where did you get one and how much did it cost?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Two years ago I purchased a C25 replacement tiller from BoatUS for $48.00.

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2003 : 23:02:45

OK, everyone is singing Koom Bye-ah (OK, I have no idea how it's really spelled!), but I have a different opinion. When I bought my boat 5+ years ago, the tiller was delaminated and suffered from a shoddy repair. Having two daughters in college, I needed to watch my expenditures. Therefore, I embarked on a repair of the tiller. During the winter months, I used an old knife and hammer to split apart the layers of wood. I sanded the flat surfaces and relaminated them using water proof glue. At the rudder end there was some rot that I removed. This left some voids that I refilled using epoxy poured into a makeshift form I made of aluminum foil. When the epoxy set, I made a couple cheek cuts on the fat end, and wrapped all sides in fiberglass and epoxy. When set, I painted the rudder end with good quality topside paint and drilled the holes for the bolts. Yes, it was a lot of work, but I have to say that the tiller, after staining, a coat of epoxy, and a number of coats of spar varnish has more character and a"saltier" look than any West Marine product. The boat isn't brand new and no one will think it is even with a new tiller. To me it was worth the time and trouble (And it is at least as strong as the original by virtue of the fiber glass and epoxy, and weather proof as well!).

What ever floats your boat, or at least keeps it sailing!

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2003 : 18:45:26

Eric,
I have been contemplating building a new tiller. I like doing that kind of thing. But I do have a quick question. What was the total cost of materials you used in the repair. If you had the stuff lying around the price was probably negligble. If you had to buy all the stuff your price might have been close to replacement with a new tiller.
Not trying to suggest you did anything but save money, and the experience is worth $50 to me. Just making sure you see all sides of the issue.

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2003 : 23:34:12

Matt,

I had all the stuff I needed having just built a replacement rudder (after my old blade-style rudder broke). The most costly thing would be the epoxy, but I have found many reasons to have some around since I bought the boat. I probably used 3 ozs or so on the tiller.

So if you build a rudder, will you laminate it or try to cut it out of a glued-up piece?

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 15:10:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ...what do you have in your hand more than your tiller?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 21:48:58

Eric: I am humbled... How much would you charge to do mine?

Some folks have more time than money; others more money than time; I have neither. When something's broken, I generally go new, and compared to guys like you, possibly waste some money in the process. The stuff that ain't broke, I fix (or at least try to maintain). Anyway, your tiller is probably stronger than mine!

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2003 : 18:41:47

Dave,

You've made my day: to my knowledge I've never humbled a MASTER MARINE CONSULTANT before!

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2003 : 20:05:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by eric.werkowitz
 ...to my knowledge I've never humbled a MASTER MARINE CONSULTANT before!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Eric: My post count just makes me a Master Blowhard, mostly looking for things to take my mind away from some BIG problems, especially when I can't do that by sailing... As for "Consultant", I do that for boat units... As for "Master Marine", I'll defer to Bill, Arlyn, Leon, Don, and the other folks I'm learning from. (You're never too old, and I'm OLD.)

Standing by, ready to pounce...

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2003 : 20:55:23

Dave,

I was only razzing you because I knew from previous posts that you didn't really like that title

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

rwall10597
Deckhand

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USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 23:59:53

Ok, since we are on the subject of pintles and gudgeons... I figured something out a few weeks ago that I wanted to share. The machine screws that hold the gudgeons to the transom had loosened up, I guess after 22 years that can happen. I had tightened up the ones on the bottom a few months ago since the nuts on the inside were easily accessible. At that time I looked at the ones on the top and they didn't seem loose enough to worry about. I realized that if they were loose there was no way to get at the nuts to tighten them up. When I looked at them a few weeks ago I was amazed the rudder hadn’t fallen completely off, two of the three nuts had totally come off, it was loosely on with one screw. I had to figure out a way to get behind there, but I wasn't about to start cutting holes that would be visible forever. After looking at it for a little bit I realized that the manufacturing plate in the back of the cockpit with the hull number on almost perfectly lined up with the top bracket. I took the plate off half expecting to see an access port to the screws. Of course there wasn’t, but I realized that there certainly could be. I went down to home depot, picked up a hole saw just smaller than the plate, and cut few holes. It worked perfectly, I could get at the nuts, and the putting the plate back on completely covered the holes. If you do this too, make sure you get a hole saw intended for fiberglass, they are totally different then ones for wood.

BW

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 08:02:42

BW,
That was a good day!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 08:38:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rwall10597
 ...I had to figure out a way to get behind there, but I wasn't about to start cutting holes that would be visible forever. After looking at it for a little bit I realized that the manufacturing plate in the back of the cockpit with the hull number on almost perfectly lined up with the top bracket. I took the plate off half expecting to see an access port to the screws. Of course there wasn’t, but I realized that there certainly could be. I went down to home depot, picked up a hole saw just smaller than the plate, and cut few holes. It worked perfectly, I could get at the nuts, and the putting the plate back on completely covered the holes. If you do this too, make sure you get a hole saw intended for fiberglass, they are totally different then ones for wood.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Excellent idea, Bob! Did the plate come off easily?

Edited by - on

Jared
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 13:51:12

atgep,

Did you ever reinforce the area around the lower pintle? I had made a temporary repair to my rudder at the lower pintle but just filling in the enlarges holes with that syringe epoxy thing that you get at West Marine and then redrilling. My fiberglass was cracked around that area as well, but I have yet to fix that other than just coating the whole area with epoxy. It is holding up, but now that winter is here, I was debating taking the thing home and drilling out larger holes (maybe 1 1/16" diameter) and plugging with some hardwood (1" diameter oak?) and epoxy. Then chip out the bad fiberglass and apply new glass in sheets and dry/sand and buy a new pintle since my old one was bent when it was loose before. Overkill?

Did you use fiberglass to reinforce the rudder or expoxy on a piece of steel or something like that?

Thanks.

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 18:16:05

This is one of the eternal C25 topics and probably has a library of previous posts, but let me hit some high points:

Tiller-find 'em at West Marine. Got one there this year for $56. They are the same size/shape as the J24's they sell.

Bronze tru-value bushings--don't make the mistake of using hardware store bolts/washers/screws if you are in salt water. I mixed in a couple of stainless bolts from the hardware store with my marine stainless from West Marine and now must remove two of my new lower gudgeon bolts because they are frantically rusting after 3 months in (or rather above) the water. The stuff they sell in marine stores has the best chance of being formulated for the application.

Rudder--these are the expensive component, around $350 from Catalina Direct. I went Eric's route and epoxied the heck out of mine. It's still sealed tight and looks great. I sanded the whole fiberglass shell before painting it with a white epoxy paint.

Cutting holes--I cut into the transom for the upper and put a 5" Beckson access plate over it. Looks spiffy, kinda the J-boat racer look.

Reinforcement--when installing the new beefier gudgeons from Catalina Direct I enlarged their bolt holes and the bolt holes on the transom to use larger bolts; made an epoxy/Starboard/stainless steel sandwich in place of the bronze bars and tapped threads through the whole thing. I may have the sturdiest rudder attachment in the fleet...the solid feel was worth the effort.

gelcoat wear--I found the new gudgeons stick out enough that they will wear grooves at the side when you turn the rudder at its hardest angle. I intend to clean up the edges and repaint since they've already worn in as much as they're going to.

Rich Kokoska

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 21:11:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rwall10597
 ...After looking at it for a little bit I realized that the manufacturing plate in the back of the cockpit with the hull number on almost perfectly lined up with the top bracket. I took the plate off half expecting to see an access port to the screws. Of course there wasn’t, but I realized that there certainly could be. I went down to home depot, picked up a hole saw just smaller than the plate, and cut few holes. It worked perfectly, I could get at the nuts, and the putting the plate back on completely covered the holes....

BW

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Is it sealed against the weather? A key advantage of a Beckson plate is that you bed the frame to the fiberglass, then the screw-in cover seals against a rubber grommet, and all is tight. Otherwise, you may have a little drip running inside the transom, under the quarterberth, and down to the bilge every time it rains. It won't sink the boat, but it may leave you wondering where the water is coming from.

Edited by - on

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