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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

installing a longer boom

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2003 : 13:32:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It's not too difficult to sail wing and wing without a pole in moderate to strong wind, but you need to keep your head down, especially in a tall rig boat, and watch carefully for any windshifts, to avoid an unexpected gybe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This has nothing to do with the original topic, but when has that ever stopped us on this board?

I put a snap shackle on the lower end of my boom vang, and when I'm running downwind for any appreciable length of time, I shackle the vang to stanchion supports (at the bottom) as a gybe preventer.

As for the whole sailing with a flattening reef/first reef in order to accomodate a bimini: when I really need the bimini in the summer, the wind on the Chesapeake is usually so light I need all the sail I can get. Plus, for me, it's an aesthetic thing -- and sailing is ALL about aesthetics -- to have the main and all the other aspects of the boat look as shippy as possible. Pride, after all, IS the original sin.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2003 : 16:01:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">when I really need the bimini in the summer, the wind on the Chesapeake is usually so light I need all the sail I can get. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you have a tall rig, as I do, you can't have both a bimini and a full mainsail (unless you don't mind lying on your back in the cockpit

). But, the tall rig with a flattening reef still has more total sail area than a standard rig.

From the standpoint of aesthetics, a flattening reef is such a slight reduction of sail area that very few sailors would even notice that a boat was sailing with a flattening reef. A reefed sail is a normal aspect of sailing, and it doesn't bother me. What bothers my sense of aesthetics is a poorly raised and improperly tensioned sail.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2003 : 20:52:03

In the interest of standardization I believe (but am not certain) that the following extrusion schedule was used. The boom on the 27 is the same extrusion used for the masts on both the tall and standard rig 25s, the boom extrusion for the 25s serves as the mast extrusion on the 22 and the boom extrusion on the 30 is the same as the mast extrusion on the 27.

Didn't read this anywhere, but after examining the rigs on plenty of these boats over the years this appears to be the case.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2003 : 22:18:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oldsalt
 In the interest of standardization I believe (but am not certain) that the following extrusion schedule was used. The boom on the 27 is the same extrusion used for the masts on both the tall and standard rig 25s, the boom extrusion for the 25s serves as the mast extrusion on the 22 and the boom extrusion on the 30 is the same as the mast extrusion on the 27.

Didn't read this anywhere, but after examining the rigs on plenty of these boats over the years this appears to be the case.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You better sit down

I think you are going to inundated with votes to the contrary.
The documentation I have seen shows a different cross section for the tall and std rig. I have never touched a tall rig, I don't think we have many in KS. (They would fall over!)

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2003 : 22:44:47

Admiral fhopper & 1st Mate Mark,

I have owned both the tall and standard rig C-25 masts, and have compared them side by side on sawhorses. Oddly enough, they are different extrusions. I suspect that the C-25 standard rig mast loads are right at the upper safe limit for that extrusion cross section. However, both C-25 booms appear to be the same extrusion.

On a smaller boats, I have used a portion of a broken mast from one to make a boom for another. That works just fine.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2003 : 22:50:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]Originally posted by Leon Sisson
On a smaller boats, I have used a portion of a broken mast from one to make a boom for another. That works just fine.

-- Leon Sisson

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My local dealer has mentioned that when he sells broken Catalina spar sections to the Aluminum scrap yard they pay him a premium. He says the quality of the metal is very good. Must be more to Al than I thought!

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2003 : 23:19:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you have a tall rig, as I do, you can't have both a bimini and a full mainsail (unless you don't mind lying on your back in the cockpit ). But, the tall rig with a flattening reef still has more total sail area than a standard rig.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, Steve, that's pretty much been the point I've been making all the while. UNLESS I have a custom main made that's got a shorter luff (and leech) than the stock sail. Which is also the point I made.

As for a flattening reef -- the flatter the sail, the less power. In light wind, I don't want the sail to be flatter. I want it to be fuller.

And, as I said, I'll play with the geometry this winter. The probability is that I won't be able to afford all the modifications necessary to make this work, and I'll end up working on my tan again next summer. I can afford to sweat off some more weight.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Mark Rials
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 07:22:04

Steve/Brooke:

I have both a tall rig and a bimini and find they work quite well together.

Edited by - on

Jared
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 07:35:49

Brooke,

I think you said your boat was in Urbanna - I am out of Deltaville. You should take it out to Stingray Point on Saturday, the weather is supposed to be great - you can use that flattening reef... I think I'm going down there just to take a picture to remind myself of how the water looked out at the mouth on the Rappahannock before getting some crazy idea and leaving Richmond in the future to go sailing when the forecast sounds kinda rough.

SAT
NE WINDS 30 TO 35 KT. WAVES 3 TO 4 FEET BUILDING TO 6 TO 8
FEET. CHANCE OF RAIN.

SAT NIGHT
NE WINDS 30 TO 35 KT. WAVES 6 TO 8 FEET. CHANCE OF
RAIN.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 10:24:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have both a tall rig and a bimini and find they work quite well together.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm 6'2", and, if I don't duck when I tack, I get hit by the boom. If the bimini is mounted low enough to clear the boom, then I have to crouch under the bimini. The only reasonably functional way that I have ever found to mount a bimini on a tall rig boat, on this forum or elsewhere, is to put in a flattening reef and raise the boom enough so that you can mount the bimini at the same height possible on a standard rig boat.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As for a flattening reef -- the flatter the sail, the less power. In light wind, I don't want the sail to be flatter. I want it to be fuller.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's true, and when racing, you would never use your bimini for that reason, among other reasons. But when you're cruising or just daysailing, the flatter sail shape isn't that great a loss. When I'm cruising, or just putzing around, and the wind is so light that a flattening reef matters all that much, I usually practice light air sailing for a little while, but then I usually just drop the sails and use the iron wind, or jump over the side and cool off. When you're racing in light air, you have to endure some discomfort to stay in the race, but when you're not racing, you have choices. You can struggle with light air, a full mainsail and no bimini while you suffer in the sun, or you can tuck in a flattening reef and raise the bimini to shelter you from the sun, or you can start the motor, or you can take a swim. You can't have the best of all those worlds all the time.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In the interest of standardization I believe (but am not certain) that the following extrusion schedule was used. The boom on the 27 is the same extrusion used for the masts on both the tall and standard rig 25s, the boom extrusion for the 25s serves as the mast extrusion on the 22 and the boom extrusion on the 30 is the same as the mast extrusion on the 27.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I haven't compared the sizes of the booms on C-25s and C-27s, but I'm sure Catalina uses standard sizes of spar extrusions that they obtain from manufacturers. As Leon points out, Catalina undoubtedly uses the various extrusions wherever they are adequate to support the anticipated loads.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 12:45:04

Racing's not an issue for me. The rest of my life is fast enough. You're absolutely right about not being able to eat our cake and have it too.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Mark Rials
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 18:42:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The only reasonably functional way that I have ever found to mount a bimini on a tall rig boat, on this forum or elsewhere, is to put in a flattening reef and raise the boom enough so that you can mount the bimini at the same height possible on a standard rig boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Having sailed many years/miles on this boat rigged with a bimini and without reefing I just don't understand a statement like this. The next time I'm down at the boat I'll get some pictures of it rigged with the bimini and main and perhaps you can identify the issues. Here's a view with the bimini stowed.

Last time someone on the forum asked, I measured the height of the bows and if I remember correctly they were 63 inches. Granted the bimini is only an inch or so below the boom when deployed, but if shade is a priority, as it is here in Florida in the summer, then "taking a bow" is just fine with me.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 21:51:13

Mark, please do take some pics and measurements! Where did you get your bimini?

Brooke

Edited by - on

Mark Rials
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2003 : 17:52:00

Got down to the boat today and took the following pics:

Starboard side with the boom just kissing the top of the bimini.

Port side with a puff now taking the boom off the bimini.

A view from aft looking at the "Crawl Space" if the crew goes forward without dropping the bimini.

Edited by - on

Mark Rials
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2003 : 17:58:00

The point of attachment at the deck.

Side view of the boom on the bimini.

The boom when stowed.

Sorry but didn't have the tape to measure the distances.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2003 : 18:13:41

Terrific post Mark, thank you for the effort.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2003 : 19:17:49

Mark, it's a little hard to tell from photos, but it looks like your mainsail is cut so that your boom rises as it goes aft. It appears that way most in your side view photo. On most tall rigs that I have seen, the boom droops lower as it goes aft. Compare it with the photo of the C25 "Abracadabra" in the photo section of the Catalina 25-250 home page. The flattening reef raises the aft end of the boom, making more clearance for the bimini.

Edited by - on

Mark Rials
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2003 : 21:04:38

For the most part the boom goes straight aft neither drooping or raising when the main is set without any purchase on the downhaul. The previous owner is a close relative and I've been assured no modifications have been made to the sail as it came from the factory.

Edited by - on

RoofRoof
Navigator

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USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2003 : 22:51:27

Nice job Mark,

If you can't help more on this forum, I'd love to check out your boat and makes some measurements.

I have a C25 TR SK here in Tampa Bay.

The bimini is of such great importance to us (red headed girlfriend) but I've been putting it off for a year now. If it works with my tall rig, I'll owe you huge.

Roof,

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2003 : 04:00:14

Mark the pics are great and very helpful. Thanks a lot! Some observations:

I agree with Steve that the angle on your boom is . . . suspicious. My boom is definitely lower than that when the sail is full. Your first pic with main raised adds to my suspicions: the reef points aren't parallel to the boom. I looks like the clew of the sail has been raised and the foot recut.

Your bimini works, barely, because its aft edge is only halfway back in the cockpit, allowing the mainsheet to swing. To that extent, you've proved my original point about boom length/mainsheet location/angle. In some ways, the location of your bimin so far forward makes it more of a dodger than a bimini (without the windshield, of course). The advantage is it shades the companionway and ladder area when the hatch is open. The disadvantage is that you have to sit forward in the cockpit to be shaded.

The bimini is still (for me) painfully low. I'm an inch taller than Steve. I don't have fantasies about being able to stand up under a bimini on a C25. I DO have fantasies about being able to go forward without much difficulty. I don't think I could on your rig.

You also have TWO shorepower fittings starboard. I have one portside. Tell me about why there are two: do you have more than one AC circuit, or are they different kinds of fittings?

Thanks!

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 12/08/2003 04:06:42

Mark Rials
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2003 : 04:41:07

Your right on a couple of points Brooke.

The bimini is short and for the helm to get shade he/she has to sit forward on certain points of sail/sun angle.

Going forward can be a challange. If you don't squeeze between the cabin and bimini, it makes for a comic scene watching someone , as "gravitationally challanged" as I, get around the thing unless it is just lowered to the top of the cabin.

I hestitated giving some dimensions but did get some semi-quantitative measures. That is, the end of the boom to the back stay while suspended from the pigtail was the length of my forearm or about 18 inches. To me, that is a meaningless dimension because it is dependant on the length of the pigtail. The top of the bimini reached my adams apple or 62 inchs when deployed.

The two fittings are for shorepower and telephone.

RoofRoof, we can get together after the holidays if you like and go for a sail and take measurements as you wish. Email me at your convenience.

Edited by - Mark Rials on 12/08/2003 04:46:44

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2003 : 12:50:25

Mark,

By looking at your photos and taking into account your measurement of 63" for the height of the bimini, I'm thinking you have a standard rig and not a tall rig.

Is this correct or am I mistaken?

Edited by - on

Mark Rials
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2003 : 18:05:48

She's a tall rig.

I had a conversation with the previous/original owner today about the thread on this forum and he confirmed what I had said about the main being original and unaltered.

He also related the following:

Upon delivery of the boat, it was discovered that the boat came with a standard rig. The boat had been ordered with the tall rig configuration. The incorrect mast was taken back to the Largo factory and a tall rig was delivered in it's place. He wondered if they made the same error in the sail inventory and now upon reviewing the comments made here, wondered, if there was an error in the sails as deliverd, was it corrected when the mast was swapped. Or, did the sail shop know the correct order and the spar shop goof?

I may have to go down and measure the main and see if I've got a tall rig with a set of standard sails.

I've always thought the thing sailed with too much helm using a 150 genoa! LOL!

Live and learn.

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