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Towing cat 25 ??

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JOHN SAINDON
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/02/2003 : 18:20:56

Hi All: just would like some advice on towing my Cat 25 fixed keel
std rig . What size truck do I need ?? and what is weight of boat ??

Best winds to you all:

Jon saindon Norfolk Va.

GERARD A. SAINDON

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 18:55:42

How far ? Over hills ? Dont forget the trailers weight. You can figure on the safe side you will need a truck that can handle 7 to 8 thousand pounds. Gear, fuel, outboard and any other extras. You can do it with a 1/2 ton and tow package but a 3/4 ton will be a dream.

Edited by - on

ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 19:41:50

John,

I towed mine from Tyler TX to Albuquerque with my 2002 Dodge 1/2 ton Quad Cab with a 4.7 ltr V-8. It was an excrutiatingly slow trip with gas mileage that made me cry. I was down to 40 mph on hills.

For that reason, I just traded my truck for a 2003 Dodge 3/4 ton 4X4 with a 5.7 ltr "Hemi". I have not towed the boat yet, but it has been towing my heavy work equipment like a dream. Gas mileage is a little better, but the increased power is worth the fuel.

I would not reccommend anyting less than a Heavy Duty 3/4 truck of some sort. That's only my opinion having used a "lesser" truck and not been happy with the results.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 20:52:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ppetracca
 John,
I would not reccommend anyting less than a Heavy Duty 3/4 truck of some sort.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ditto

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 21:03:42

IMHO.. a 3/4 ton pickup or large SUV (Expedition, Suburban etc.) is needed to do the job safely.

C25 + Trailer = About 6,000 lbs with NO extra gear. So that's the bare minumum tow rating you're looking for. Inboard diesel models (rare) adds more... and it's not uncommon for crusiers to have an extra 500 to 1000 lbs 'gear' with them.

Make sure your trailer brakes, bearings, tires and lights are all in top shape and working properly.

A C25 gets pretty big it's being towed.

Edited by - on

joe keith
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 22:02:51

I have a 2001 3/4 ton dodge with 360 and a 85 SRFK C25. The truck feels fine towing the load but I sure wish I had a bigger engine.

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 22:54:02

We towed our 80 swing keel for years with a 1/2 ton Suburban 4 wheel drive, with 350 V-8 and towing package. It worked very well, a bit slow up very steep hills but great on the open road.

We now have a new GMC Yukon 1/2 ton V-8 not sure what size, 2 wheel drive. It works but is marginal. We don't trailer much anymore. Recently I was pulling the boat and had to brake fairly hard around a curve and felt quite uncomfortable. I really miss the extra weight and length of the Suburban plus the 4 wheel drive at the boat ramp.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2003 : 23:46:09

Re: "C25 + Trailer = About 6,000 lbs with NO extra gear. ... not uncommon for cruisers to have an extra 500 to 1000 lbs 'gear' with them."

For me, 500#-1000# over "as delivered new" weight is travelin' light.

I suspect that many C-25s loaded for cruising would tip the scales at close to 6,000# without the trailer. Steel trailers in that load range tend to weigh around a ton empty. My trailer (below) is a 10,000# frame riding on a 7,500#-8,000# undercarriage. If I had it to do over, I'd spend the extra for a 10,000# undercarriage. I'd say the most under rated C-25 tow vehicle criteria is wheelbase length.

Short trucks can get a bit 'snakey' towing a C-25 at highway speeds...

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 12/02/2003 23:47:18

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2003 : 08:39:30

I regularly tow my 87 C25 SR/SK with my Ford F250, which works well. The last time I towed the boat, I had to travel about 240 miles one way, but my F250 was in the shop. I didn't know what my boat and trailer weighed together, but close to where I dry-slip my boat is a CAT scales station. My dad recently bought a 2003 Suburban with towing package, with a towing capacity of 7800 pounds. Borrowing his Suburban I took the boat and trailer to the CAT scales, together they weighed something like 6,400 pounds, so I felt confident with the ability of the Suburban. In fact, on the surface it seemed to pull easier than my F250, but I think that just because the F250 is geared to tow, so feels different than normal vehicles. Anyway, the weight of my boat was COMPLETELY empty. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the cabin or lockers.

Just a reminder, when you tow your boat, be sure to keep an eye on the tempurature of your hubs. I greased mine just before pulling out of the dry-slip, and stopped every so often to check the bearing buddies. Few things scare me more than having a trailer mishap on the road with two or three tons of boat behind me.

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2003 : 12:09:48

My wife and I have pulled the boat many times with this rig. We can average 62 mph here in California to keep up with the truckers, get about 14 mpg. Going over steep grades I wish I had one more gear between 2nd and 3rd. I think Dodge has that option now, my truck is a 1995, Ram Diesel, 3/4 ton. The only problem we have had is not enough tongue weight a few times and the trailer will whip. You need at least 10% of the load's weight on the tongue. Don't try to pull your boat with an improper vehicle. I know that it is possible to use lighter weight vehicles but you can ruin a vacation very quickly if anything goes wrong, like putting the whole rig on its side or off the road. God bless and drive safely.

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2003 : 12:11:13

Sorry, I just used the Quick Reply and I couldn't post the photo. Here it is.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 13:23:05

When I brought my newly purchased Mk. IV home from Virginia last September, I ran the rig through a local truck scale - 7550# for the boat and trailer, and this is with the boat stripped. With the water and fuel tanks filled, outboard motor mounted, cruising gear, food, etc. I would estimate the towing weight of the boat and trailer would likely be not less than 8000#. We have a 1989 Mk. IV with the inboard diesel in our sailing clug, and that boat+trailer has been weighed on the same truck scale at an astounding 9500#! The point being that Catalina 25's are heavy, especially the Mk. III's and Mk. IV's, and require a long-wheel-base, heavy duty tow vehicle. Also remember that the towing capacity of a vehicle isn't just how powerful the engine is! To use the Ford "F" series pickup as an example, as you move up from the F-150 to the F-250, then F-350 Super-Duty, each step up gives you increases in the size and strength of the brakes, chassis frame members, driveshaft, U-joints, rear axle, suspension A-Arms, leaf springs, anti-sway bars, wheel bearings, rims, lugbolts,and shocks. The truck itself gets heavier, too; say 4000# for an F-150, compared to 6500# for an F-350SD Powerstroke Diesel. The heavier weight the truck is, the more stable it will be and less likely to jackknife when braking hard in an emergency stop situation with that 8000# boat behind you. Wheelbase is very important, as well. The relative "shortness" of SUV's, for example the Ford Expedition, makes SUV's less capable as tow vehicles compared to an F-350 Crew Cab dually pickup, with it's much longer wheelbase. One last word about the gas vs. diesel issue: my Dodge Cummins diesel pickup will get 14mpg towing my Catalina 25, compared to 7mpg for the same Dodge 2500 pickup with the 360 gas engine. In the Ford line, an F-350SD Powerstroke Diesel will get about 12mpg compared to about 6mpg with a 460 gas engine. When not towing, the diesels average 30% to 40% better fuel economy then the same trucks with large gas engines. Bottom line is that the $4500 diesel engine option will pay for itself in fuel savings in the first 50,000 to 70,000 miles.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 15:33:19

What, me worry?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 15:48:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 "When I brought my newly purchased Mk. IV home from Virginia...We have a 1989 Mk. IV with the inboard diesel in our sailing clug...The point being that Catalina 25's are heavy, especially the Mk. III's and Mk. IV's,..."

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25WK/TR Mk. IV #5857 "Quiet Time"
Folsom Lake, CA<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Larry, I see you are now referring to your boat as simply a MK IV instead of an 89' MK IV.

(Question: Are there any other MK's in 89' other than IV?)

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 18:25:12

MK V Mod 2 Rev 9, is this some kind of biblical reference?[{)] Also, Frank, I see your's is an 89. Mine is an 86 and I have bow lights on the pulpit, but yours is a later date and has them in the hull. Is this part of the MK V stuff?

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 19:55:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Catalina 25's are heavy, especially the Mk. III's and Mk. IV's<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why are the Mk 3's and 4's heavier? Is it a FK/SK/WK and/or diesel/outboard issue? How much heavier?

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2003 : 23:53:47

Hi all, I have been towing my 77 sk with a vintage 89 ford f250. It has a manual transmission with 5 upper and 5 lower speeds. the lower gears are in 4 wheel drive. That ultra low first gear makes it a dream to climb up a steep ramp with a damp sailboat. I am considering a replacemant but am reluctant because the old truck still has some kick in her, and I don't like to spend a lot if I don't have to.

I have considered having the ford gone over, new paint job, new undercoating, perhaps a new cap. that would cost a lot less than buying a new or even a used vehicle. I probably tow my boat more than 1200 miles per year and I like the way the heavy old ford does the job. We are able to maintain 60 mph in 4th. It has a great engine the 351 built in Brook Park OH.

just thought I would add to the discussion.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2003 : 14:16:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Why are the Mk 3's and 4's heavier? Is it a FK/SK/WK and/or diesel/outboard issue? How much heavier?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From the limited comparisons I have seen, the Mk. III & Mk. IV boats seem to average about 500# more than the Mk. I and Mk. II, assuming "stripped" boats. I think the difference might be in the cabin liner, which seems to me to be slightly thicker fiberglass than on the older boats. I just know that several of the Catalina 25's in my sailing club have been weighed on truck scales, and the newer the boat, the heavier it is. This also applies to the Catalina 22. The '71-'85 Catalina 22 "Mk. I" (all of these have aluminum-framed windows), are on average 400# lighter than the '86-'91 Catalina 22 "Mk. II" with the built-in galley forward of the dinette table. The difference is so much that on our local Folsom Lake racing circuit, the "competitive" Catalina 22's are all '71-'74 boats without a foredeck hatch, and no lifelines or stern pulpit. Stripped to the bare bones, these oldest Catalina 22's are so much faster than the '86-'91 "heavy" 22's that you would think they are a completely different brand of boat.

Edited by - lcharlot on 12/06/2003 14:17:48

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2003 : 14:38:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Mine is an 86 and I have bow lights on the pulpit, but yours is a later date and has them in the hull. Is this part of the MK V stuff?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is where the demarcation of the Catalina 25's is a little fuzzy. At first I thought you could separate them by model year: Mk. I's being the '77-'81 with the gas tank shelf in the lazarette, then the Mk. II being the '82-'85 with the new-style separate gas tank locker, then the Mk. III being the '86-'87 with the flush-mount windows and the wing keel option, then the Mk. IV being the '88-'91 (hull numbers 5803-6031) with the lowered cabin floor (none of these are swing keels). The first Mk. III is also supposed to be the first C-25 with the bow light on the pulpit instead of the separate teardrop lights in the hull. HOWEVER - I have been hearing from some owners that their boats don't fit the cataegories or model year boundaries exactly. For example, an '87 WK boat that has the lowered floor, and at least two '81 boats that have the separate gas tank locker that I thought didn't start until the '82 model year. So, the guidelines aren't exact. When you are shopping for a Catalina 25, you have to examine the boat close up to make sure it has what you expect. But in general, the key features are what I listed above: Mk I = all of the oldest Catalina 25's with the gas tank in the lazarette, aluminum windows, swing or fin keel
Mk. II = Separate gas tank locker, aluminum framed windows, swing or fin keel
Mk. III = Flush Mount Windows, Wing, Swing, or Fin keel
Mk. IV = Flush mount windows, Wing or Fin keel (no swingers), lowered cabin floor with a single bilge sump and no keel trunk.

Someday, I'd like to try to establish which hull numbers mark these 4 major design evolutions, to aid people who are shopping for a C-25.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2003 : 14:42:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Larry, I see you are now referring to your boat as simply a MK IV instead of an 89' MK IV.

(Question: Are there any other MK's in 89' other than IV?)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No: All '89-'90 hulls are Mk. IV. But - I have heard from someone who has an '88 that does NOT have the lowered cabin floor, making it a Mk. III. The model years are not exact boundaries between the different "Marks" for the Catalina 25.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2003 : 14:58:57

Larry,

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Someday, I'd like to try to establish which hull numbers mark these 4 major design evolutions, to aid people who are shopping for a C-25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This would indeed be a helpful service to the owners association as well as prospective new owners. Many of us are only familiar with the model we own. Several times I've seen confusion arise in discussions of model-specific details were one or more of us are probably thinking, "Huh? What's he talking about? Mine's not like that..." And it is of course helpful if we include at least our model year when we think we may be discussing one of those evolutionary details.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2003 : 18:05:37

I just towed Encore! home for winter today and just for grins, stopped at the trucker scales. My 2 wheel drive '78 Ford 250 PU
with extended cab, 460, a heavy fiberglass canopy cap weighed 6500# with 2 big men and two full tanks of gas. She weighs about 5800 empty, so several hundred pounds is tongue weight, obviously.

The trailer and boat weighed right at 6300#, excluding tongue weight, of course. The Yamaha 9.9 was still on, and a fair amount of cruising gear was aboard, but not full water tanks, etc. The trailer is an EZ Loader with wheels, and the boat is a '78 SK/SR (Mark 1= ha ha)

NO WAY would I want to pull this load with a lighter rig, no matter what the "horsepower". Pull it on level ground is EASY. Pulling hills and STOPPING are the issues I worry about. By the way, I "safely" hit one long hill at 68 , went over the top (over a mile) at 65. I don't like to ever go faster, but hitting a hill at 55 doesn't give me the torque, even with the big engine, and I have to drop to 2nd gear and scream along around 50.

Hey, everything I own is a '78. Hey, I was state of the art, 25 years ago!

Gary B.
Encore! SK/SR #685

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2003 : 11:30:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com

What, me worry?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
HEY THIS PICTURE IS FUNNY
Or do you all think it is stupid and are too polite to comment. You have to have noticed that the boat is at least twice the size it is supposed to be.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2003 : 13:15:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You have to have noticed that the boat is at least twice the size it is supposed to be<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh....now I get it, I thought it was a C30......

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

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