Association Forum - Buying A New C250 WK, Hull #727

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Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Buying A New C250 WK, Hull #727

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Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/11/2004 : 23:34:00

I purchased my 2004 C250 WK from Sailing Ventures of Lake Tahoe in June of 2003. The boat was to be delivered on September 2nd.

What started as something I was looking forward to has turned into the standard corporate muck, and looking back, practices that have to be questionable.

On August 27th the dealer advised me that he had talked to Catalina, and was told by Catalina that he would have to pay the truck driver for the boats (he was taking delivery of 2 C250's) upon delivery. He requested the balance due when my boat left the factory, and said he would let me know when it was shipped. This was contrary to my contract that called for full payment upon delivery. He also told me that it was a one day trip, not leaving much time for me to get the payment to him as the driver would leave at night and arrive the first thing the following morning. Also, at that time he couldn't confirm that the boat would be delivered on September 2nd.

I met the dealer on September 4th and made the final payment for my boat. I felt funny about this, especially in light of the fact that I still couldn’t get a date certain for delivery of the boat. Looking back, I certainly gave away any leverage I might have if there was a problem with the delivery of the boat. I assumed that paying the total amount owed upon shipping was a Catalina policy and practice. So, trust gave way to being skeptical. I would be interested to know if anyone buying a new boat was also told that Catalina’s policy and practice is to collect full payment upon shipping the boat from the factory?

I was also charged $50.00 for the Catalina Factory Warranty and $15 for Association Membership and the Mainsheet Magazine subscription. I was told the Catalina Factory would reimburse the “Warranty Fee” to me after I took delivery of the boat. I questioned this and didn’t receive any definitive answer and have yet to receive my reimbursement. Does anyone understand having to pay for a warranty and then being reimbursed at a later date for that payment? Has this been the case for everyone who has purchased a new boat from Catalina? Would this mean I wouldn’t have received a warranty if I had refused the $50.00 charge, even though it was supposed to be refunded to me?

In my contract I agreed to help with the commissioning of the boat and the dealer discounted the total price of commissioning. On September 9th the dealer was able to tell me that my boat would be delivered on the following Monday, September 15th. The dealer told me, given the troubles we were having on getting a date for delivery, that he would commission the boat with his helper when it arrived, and advise me when it was finished and I could come to Carson City, NV to pick up the boat.

I declined his offer, as I wanted to be there to learn about the boat and see how it was rigged. I’m glad I made that decision, as it could have very well created more problems for me than already exist.

On September 15th the dealer notified me that the boat would be delivered to Carson City, NV on September 16th, and we would start rigging the boat on September 17th. Late the night of September 16th the dealer contacted me to tell me that things had changed and the boat was delivered to Lake Tahoe, CA. The dealer accepted delivery of the boat the morning of September 16th.

I arrived early the morning of September 17th, as I was excited to see the boat and wanted to take photos of the boat to have a record of the experience. I took several photos of the boat that morning. It was somewhat odd to me that the boat was parked on a public road at the entrance to Tahoe Keys Marina. That is where the boat was commissioned over the next two days.

While taking photos of the boat I noticed what appeared to be black scuffmarks on the bow, above and below the bow cradles. I didn’t understand what this really meant until much later, but was very glad that I was there to take photos of the boat at the time I did.

I assumed that the scuffmarks were something that happened and could be removed with some kind of “black mark” commercial cleaner, as the dealer, who accepted the boat upon delivery never mentioned them to me. In all that was happening with the rigging of my boat and his time spent on a second boat delivered, I didn’t mention to him that I had noticed the scuffmarks.

The dealer accepted the boat upon delivery and I had every reason to believe that he carefully inspected the boat for any damage. He has stated that he inspected the boat when it was delivered and nothing was wrong with the boat. He also denies seeing any black scuffmarks on the bow. I don’t understand his statement given the following photo was taken on September 17th, before any work was done on the boat.

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/dkn420/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/9172003b.jpg

I also noticed that the boat had been secured to the trailer with polypropylene rope with pieces of carpet under the places where the rope was in contact with the boat. The mast was secured to the trailer with the same rope, as well as the trailer tongue extension. As far as I can determine the boat was prepared for shipping at the factory in this manner and loaded onto a transporter for the trip to Lake Tahoe, CA. Is this the proper way and proper material to use for securing a boat to the trailer? If anyone has received their new boat on a trailer, can they tell me how it was secured on the trailer for delivery?

During the rigging process the dealer told me that I should go to Wal-Mart or K-Mart and get nylon webbing straps to secure the boat to the trailer when I took it to Sacramento for bottom painting and then home to Lake Oroville. I took his advice and purchased heavy-duty nylon straps with metal hooks on each end and a ratchet device to tighter the straps on the trailer.

The dealer was present when we secured the boat to haul it home. He even checked the tension on the nylon webbing straps we were using to secure the boat to the trailer. The boat was put on the trailer at the factory, and wasn’t removed from the trailer after it was delivered in Lake Tahoe.

Catalina has alluded the I didn’t properly seat the boat in the bow cradles when I towed it home and thereby caused the damage to the bow of the boat and possibly the flexing of the hull that lead to gel coat crazing on the foredeck of my boat. But the damage now on the bow is the same as it was the morning of September 17th. Since Catalina’s statement I have looked at the owners manual and there is no instruction at all regarding securing the boat to the trailer and what steps are needed to make sure the boat is ready to tow. The dealer gave no instructions either.

During the two days of commissioning the boat I found the following things:

1. The rudder was damaged and needed repairs upon delivery.
2. The compass was damaged and needed replacement.
3. The sails were not delivered with the boat and had to be shipped to me later.
4. The ST60 Wind System that was ordered with the boat was damaged in some way, and to this date does not function properly. Nothing was done during the commissioning of the boat to make sure that it worked properly.

Since the boat was launched in early October I have found:

1. The black bow cradles on the trailer are damaged by movement of the boat on the trailer, prior to being delivered to me.
2. After I noticed the gel coat crazing, Morrison Marine in Sacramento, who did the bottom paint and installed Lewmar portlights over the aft-berth, told me that they noticed a gel coat crack on the boat when it was in their shop.
3. After taking the boat out one time to sail in light wind and a second time in which it was only motored due to lack of wind, gel coat cracks were noticed at three different locations on the foredeck of the boat.
4. There is damage to the gel coat on the bow above and below the eyehook on the bow. Black rubber from the trailer bow cradles is ground into the gel coat and could not even be removed with commercial cleaner.
5. There is also what appears to be “gel coat” damage on the bow just below the deck on each side of the bow.

This was supposed to be a NEW boat, not one that was in need of immediate repairs.

On October 30th I noticed “spider cracks” or “gel-coat crazing” and immediately notified the dealer and provided photos of the damage. I requested that someone from Catalina come to the boat and evaluate the damage. I wanted to be sure there was no structural damage to the boat. To this date no one representing Catalina has been to my boat to evaluate the damage and assure me that it is only cosmetic, as they have stated, from a distance.

I did some research and found that gel coat crazing is normally caused by one of two things. Either, the gel coat application process was bad or there had been stress or flexing on the underlying laminates. To date, no one from Catalina or representing Catalina has told me what could have caused the gel coat crazing. They have only looked for ways to make it my fault.

I tried to remove the black scuffmarks from the bow of the boat with a commercial black mark cleaner I purchased at West Marine. I found that it couldn’t be removed. It was at that point that I really noticed that the gel coat on the bow was damaged. I then looked at the rubber bow cradles closely and found them to be damaged also.

At that point I went back to my photos that were taken on September 17th. After enlarging them you can see the damage to the bow of the boat. It is identical to the damage that you can see on the bow of the boat at the present time. It is obvious that the boat was moving up and down in the bow cradles approximately 12” during the time it was transported from the Catalina factory in Woodland Hills, CA to South Lake Tahoe, CA. The boat was delivered with this damage and accepted by the dealer. It is the only evidence I can find that indicates underlying stress and flexing of the hull of the boat. The boat had to be pivoting at some point on the trailer while the bow was moving up and down. I am concerned, given my investment, that there is the potential for structural damage due to movement and flexing of the hull during the shipping of the boat for delivery.

Please see Page 2 post...

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/dkn420/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/bowdamagec.jpg

On December 12th I received a short phone call from Frank Butler, but only after I contacted Kent Nelson and asked him what was happening with the information and photos I forwarded to him at his request. Mr. Butler advised me he would be sending me a letter. His December 20th letter indicated that my boat has “minor gel coat crazing”.

In a third phone conversation on December 24th I tried to explain the bow damage and sequence of events to Frank Butler and Gerry Douglas, so they could understand what the photos really meant in the sequence of the damage. It was quite obvious to me that they were more interested in finding a way to blame me for the damage during the time I towed the boat home. Mr. Douglas intimated that the boat wasn’t properly seated in the bow cradles when I towed it home. Yet the physical evidence and photographic evidence shows the same damage on the boat the first time I saw it that currently exists on the bow at the present time. At some point in these conversations I was told that the damage only amounted to 2 or 3 hours of work.

I think we all remember that the damage to Hull #734 that was delivered to Fleming Island, FL was only going to require 2 to 3 hours of repairs, according to Frank Butler’s foreman.

It is obvious that they are searching for a way to blame me for the damage to the boat that is evident in photos I took the morning of September 17th, and still remains on the boat to this date. Frank Butler has promised to send me another letter. If I had to guess, it will be an attempt to minimize Catalina’s costs for the repair of my boat and a denial that Catalina did anything wrong in building and delivering my boat.

I may not be a boating person but in my professional career I have investigated many cases of damages caused by corporations, and their pattern is to blame everyone but themselves, even to the point of ignoring the clear evidence. I don’t know why I expected anything else, but I truly wanted to expect the best.

The dealer has told me to go ahead and use my boat, as the damage is only cosmetic. I haven’t sailed the boat since I discovered the gel coat problems, as it is difficult for me to have faith and trust in what I’m being told given the totality of the circumstances since the day I ordered my boat.

This isn’t to say I wouldn’t purchase another boat from Catalina because I really like my boat for the reasons I made the decision to buy a C250 WK, but I would really do it differently the next time, and I doubt they would be willing to sell me a boat, given the conditions I would insist on in a contract.

Edited by - Dkn420 on 02/03/2004 18:24:58

gfaust
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2004 : 16:56:35

I share the pain I just bought a 2004 wing keel 250 from eastern yacht sales in west plam beach they also asked for full payment except - they were already late on my delivery ,i called catalina
to confirm what they were saying. the word i got from catalina is this is between you and the dealer. they were 6 months late. I didnt
pay them until the boat arrived at the yard and then. I held back all commising fees until the day i took the boat--- now i know why people do not buy new boats !!!! this process should be as easy as buying a car.

Edited by - on

Grego5
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2004 : 12:26:30

I feel your pain as well. I bought a used (9 months old) 2003 WK through a broker. My Transaction was riddled with problems. The Document service would'nt deal with my financial institution, the broker did'nt convey ALL my requirements to the PO. After my offer was made the Broker allowed ther PO back on the boat to remove what he wanted (about $500 worth of gear). I ended up taking the advice of an Atty and put all funds in place and then froze them until the boat was restored. I should have terminated the deal and either got a different broker or dealt with the PO personally. My bank would have taken care of it either way.

When you are spending the same amount that you are spending on a car (+-10-15k) it should be just like buying a car. If you are spending as much as you would on a house it would be more difficult and may require brokers and specialized financing and paper work.