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Catalina 25 water leaks

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Deb
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/16/2004 : 12:29:06

I'm looking to buy my first sailboat, hopefully a Cat 25. I looked at a 1981, fixed keel, pop top, stored on trailer outside. Upon entering the cabin, there is a pool of water on the floor in front of the stove and in front of the entrance to the head. The bilge is full. The boat supposedly has not been used all season. Broker says someone probably left the companionway open at some time or condensation from the windows is accumulating. My guess is pop top leaks or companionway weaks. Any thoughts?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 13:06:45

I doubt condensation would cause all that water accumualtion that you describe, but a lot of other things could be the source or sources of water infiltration.

Firstly, it is not uncommon for a twenty year old boat to have a few leaks (I'm still battling leaks myself) so I wouldn't be overly concerned about some water on the interior as long as this water infiltration hasn't caused damage, especially to the cored deck, interior bulkheads, or any other structural items.

Possible areas for leaking include the hatchboards, windows, hull joint, and deck mounted items. Do you see signs of caulk around your windows? If you do, the previous owner probably had a leak and tried to stop it by applying caulk around the glass. This rarely works so this could be one source for the water.

If the boat has sat for a year it probably needs a good bath. If the broker will allow you, wash the boat and while liberally applying water, check the interior especially the windows, for the tell tale drips.

Edited by - dlucier on 01/16/2004 13:07:55

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 13:33:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Deb
 there is a pool of water on the floor in front of the stove and in front of the entrance to the head. The bilge is full. Any thoughts?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I consider my 82 to be a dry boat but I occationally find water in the low spot in front of the galley. I am glad it accumulates there. The companionway does not close up tight and a driving rain will get in our boats. The water in the bilge makes it sound like you have deck leaks that are running between the liner and hull and ending up in the bilge. The pool in front of the head scares me! If it is from windows or the mast step I would be leary of core rot. It almost sounds as if the water level has been higher and is now down to the point of leaving the two pools and the remainder in the bilge. That would be gross negligence and would make me look for a different boat on principle. My hope is these collections of water are only related by the storm, not by the way the water got in the boat. The best first step is to look at the inside of the hull from every storage opening you can find and look for signs of a water trail. Also look for signs of this being a common event! I have seen it suggested that horizontal chalk lines be drawn on the inside of the hull so that water trails can be spotted the next time there is a leak, seems like a great idea to me. I and many others cure the companionway issue with canvas covers, mine snaps to the pop-top tent snaps. Until you can spot a source for the bilge water you may need to simply rebed things that seem obvious and doable; chainplates, cleats, etc. I would certainly try to find some other boats to look at. Another thing, if a broker is going to attribute that much water to window condensation you are dealing with someone who is either dishonest or doesn't care enough to think about an answer before he says it. I would be very careful with that broker.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 13:35:05

The low spot at the base of the galley is exactly where water accumulates on my C25. Leaks occur through 3 places that I've found:

(1) companionway. My doors are louvered and they leak in the rain. I have made a cover for this and that stopped 99% of that.

(2) pop-top. There is basically no way to stop leaks around the pop-top when power washing the boat. Fore and aft there are basically big slots where the top slides. Hosing the boat forces water in here. Basically be careful when washing and this can be controlled. Also most of us keep the pop top covered with canvas or a tarp when not using the boat.

(3) windows. Allmost all of my windows were leaking (25 year old boat). Fixing these leaks are easy, but takes some time. Eventually you'll have to pull the window, re-bed it, and put in new weather striping (available from Catalina Direct) and use windshield sealant (very liquid silicone) around the outside of the glass. My forward windows were the worst, especially the sliding window in the head (I caulked this permanently shut).

Oh yeah, don't overfill the water! This will leak out of the tank and make a big mess!

None of these problems are serious or deal killers. Leaks around the stanchions, chainplates, shrouds leading to a delaminated deck would be a different story!

Dry out the keel well with a shop vac and see if you get any additional water. Check keel bolts carefully for rust.

Edited by - on

sailboatlogos.com
Deckhand

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10 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 14:26:36

Hi Deb. Have to agree with the above - Id be real leary of this broker..No way a bilge - even the rather small one on a C25 - could/should be full from simple condensation or minor leakage <ports, stanchions and the like> unless it has sat for a VERY long time..

A suggestion and $$ WELL spent that I havent seen anyone recommend yet.. HIRE an accredited Marine Surveyer once you settle on the boat that is a "must have" ! For a modest sum - to have an experienced 3rd party give you an HONOST appraisal - you may very well save your self a HUGE headache!

Best of Luck. The C25 is a fantastic vessel!

Mark Taylor ex C25 #5541
'75 C30 SR/FK #17 @ Smith Mtn Lake, VA

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 14:30:22

Deb,

I agree with most of what fhopper, JimB517, and Don said, although I wouldn't walk away from the boat just yet.

There's no way condensation alone could fill the bilge. The salesperson who said that should get several credibility demerits. And yes, any used boat this old is likely to have rain leaks. It's to be expected, and it's no big deal. Fortunately, unlike some designs, the C-25 has almost no structural wood low in the bilges. Check the very bottom of the mast compression post for water damage, and check for delamination in the cabin sole core. If the boat was stored "tilted back" on it's trailer, check around the lower rudder gudgeon inside the transom for rot. Inspect around all deck penetrations for major core rot or delamination. (Minor localized core damage isn't hard to fix.) But don't panic, there's probably no harm done. Just pump it out, rinse once or twice with diluted detergent and bleach, and install one or more automatic bilge pumps. Move "fix rain leaks" up a notch on the "To Do" list.

All that said, I would encourage you to get a professional survey on any used boat this size or larger that you're ready to make a serious purchase offer on. The survey would likely pay for itself just in final selling price bargaining leverage. It's also a fine way to get someone else to write that older used boat "To Do" list for you!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 14:32:12

Greetings Deb,

The Catalina 25 (produced 1978-1989)is a simple, sturdy, stylish boat that You won't regret owning as your first, as I've found with my own C25 #4603. And if you do buy a C25 (or C22 or C250) you won't find a more experienced, helpful, or entertaining resource than the (sometimes colorful

)folks on this forum!

A couple of fine points to add to the comments above:

--pop-top: There is actually a rubber gasket running in a "U" shape between the coach roof and the bottom of the pop top. It's the same material as the seat lid and forward hatch gaskets and can be replaced, giving a better or perfect seal depending on the curvature of the parts:

--floor locations: in my C25 I've drilled 1/2" limber holes at that corner of the galley sole and the low corner of the head sole, as well as several other places (lazaret and v-berth locker), to let condensation and rainwater find its way to the bilge. Under the carpet you won't even see them; if you want them sealed, a standard rubber baitwell plug works.

Rich Kokoska

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 16:32:53

Thanks very much, Raskal, I didn't know a gasket was available that fit in the u-shaped slot for the pop-top. I'll check mine over carefully and perhaps get a new gasket from Catalina Direct. That leak is minor in the rain or when washing but I'd worry if I was ever taking green water over the bow.

Edited by - on

skipn809
Navigator

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111 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2004 : 17:03:28

When I bought my 85 it had been on the hard for sale for 3 years. There was some water in the bildge, and obviously water had entered the companionway, and the window over the stove. I later located a leak from the port over the head, and an earlier fixed leak from a chainplate over the sink. The port over the head and the port chainplate was causing a pool of water in the head floorboard.

I rebedded the windows (the head twice with silicone, and it looks like I will do it one more time with 101), chain plates (one twice) and the cabintop hardware. As it stands I still need to do a stanchion and maybe a pulpit. I was concerned about the bildge water, but knew it was rain water, so it should be fixable. Splashed the boat last June, and the bildge has been dry as a bone since. I looked for serious water damage before buying the boat, and (knock on wood) only had to reinforce the bulkhead under the sink from a chainplate leak. I'd look for bulkhead rot and soft spots on the deck, negotiate if it is sound, pay more than you should (seems like I always do that), and go have some fun.

Edited by - on

sailboatlogos.com
Deckhand

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10 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2004 : 06:37:25

Deb
It occured to me after my post, you might like to know HOW to find a reputable marine surveyer..sooo... here you go! To find a listing of the SAMS in your area go to:

http://www.marinesurvey.org/<your state initials here>.html

For Example, in NC:

http://www.marinesurvey.org/nc.html

Best Regards,
Mark
'75 C30 #17 SR/FK @ Smith Mtn Lake, VA

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2004 : 10:22:46

Mr. Taylor, you are still advertising with your sign on name and your signoff greeting. Your enthusiasm for our forum is appreciated and you are welcome here...please just advertise your business another way. Thank you.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2004 : 10:38:25

I as well believe that a line is being crossed since I think it's unfair that the membership which supports this forum pay for any individual's advertising venue.

Edited by - on

dmreece
Deckhand

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USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2004 : 23:16:05

JimB517, you don't have to go to CD for the pop-top seal. Home Depot 1" wide 1/2" thick weatherstriping will work fine. Takes two 10' roles. With the leftover, take an exacto-knife - divide it in half and seal the front hatch or anchor hatch. I resealed mine this past summer with no problems.

-dreece

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2004 : 00:44:45

Deb: My 1981 fin keel sound very similar to yours. When I purchased it, the windows all leaked. Automotive clear silicone window sealant (a thin bead between the gasket and the glass), and nary a leak in six years. Rarely is it necessary to remove and rebed the windows. Other sources for your water:

1) Chainplates, stanchions and any other intrusions into the deck (My PO had drilled a hole through the deck near the compression post to run the VHF wire--it leaked water into the head area every time it rained. Use the blunt end of a screwdriver to bang the deck in any of those locations--if the deck is soft, the core may be rotter.

2) Frozen and ruptured water supply or waste removal lines. A frozen and ruptured water tank would drain into the bilge.

3) Check the hul to deck joint with a powerful water spray (with a friend inside the hull to report on water penetration. Common way for water to enter the C25.

4) A blocked weep hole in the forward anchor locker.

5) All the other entry points mentioned by others.

As for the survey, it depends on how much you expect to spend, the general condition of the boat (age of motor, sails, etc.). Despite the fact that the C25 was made "to sell for a price", it is one tough little boat, and there is virtually nothing on it that a resourceful owner cannot bring back or fix. I did not get a survey on mine, but then I did not pay much for it, and for the price I was not expecting perfection. If you are a novice boat buyer, however, a survey would be a worthwhile option.

Edited by - on

DocNeon
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2004 : 15:14:34

that better gentelmen? Quite frankly I forgot to uncheck the "include signature" feature previously.. And since the previous name seems to offend as well ... changed that also in response to your concern.. I apologize to Deb for the off subject reply here to her original question.

Edited by - on

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